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Old 05-19-2020, 11:36 PM   #41
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Ah I see.
I asked because to me, this 1997 show doesn't sound any different than the 2 shows I saw in 2013 and 2019. Band seems pretty consistent to me.
Yeah, certainly more similarities than the different era of DMB. That being said, you can definitely hear the differences in the sound if you listen to enough shows.

Phish from '89-'93 was more song-based, almost no jamming whatsoever, except when they played longer jam songs like "Whipping Post" or "David Bowie". It was reserved for special songs. And the jamming was very chromatic and all over the place, lots of tension and release.

'94-'96 They entered the arena phase--their sound got bigger, they tightened up some of the compositions and started exploring other musical genres like Bluegrass, arena rock and layered funk--started doing the halloween cover albums which really made them even better musicians.

'97-'04 - Things got much more funky, spacey and ambient. Drugs were also at their peak in the band, so jams got longer and sometimes unfortunately meandering, but they were much more prevalent.

'09-Present. --I think you could break these years down too, but they've been the most consistent since the breakup. Once 2012 hit they really started getting back into experimental jamming but with much more of a sharper focus imo. I think the jamming they do now is WAY better, WAY tighter and more interesting than what they did in the late 90s. But I'm probably in the minority. Trey isn't as fast or able on guitar as was before, but they get locked into much tighter grooves now.
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Old 05-19-2020, 11:39 PM   #42
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Here's a good taste of just pure, tight Phish jamming - nothing spacey, goofy, or weird about it, just the band locked in and bringing the song to an incredible peak and back down again:

[Only registered users can see links.]

That was in MSG about 8 years, almost to the day, after 12/21/02 with James Brown, in the same arena. And those were probably the two most epic song performances I've seen across about a dozen shows at MSG.
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Old 05-19-2020, 11:46 PM   #43
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Yeah, certainly more similarities than the different era of DMB. That being said, you can definitely hear the differences in the sound if you listen to enough shows.

Phish from '89-'93 was more song-based, almost no jamming whatsoever, except when they played longer jam songs like "Whipping Post" or "David Bowie". It was reserved for special songs. And the jamming was very chromatic and all over the place, lots of tension and release.

'94-'96 They entered the arena phase--their sound got bigger, they tightened up some of the compositions and started exploring other musical genres like Bluegrass, arena rock and layered funk--started doing the halloween cover albums which really made them even better musicians.

'97-'04 - Things got much more funky, spacey and ambient. Drugs were also at their peak in the band, so jams got longer and sometimes unfortunately meandering, but they were much more prevalent.

'09-Present. --I think you could break these years down too, but they've been the most consistent since the breakup. Once 2012 hit they really started getting back into experimental jamming but with much more of a sharper focus imo. I think the jamming they do now is WAY better, WAY tighter and more interesting than what they did in the late 90s. But I'm probably in the minority. Trey isn't as fast or able on guitar as was before, but they get locked into much tighter grooves now.
You are definitely in the minority ;-)

I will say that 3.0 Phish has more of a mature, composed sound, and there have certainly been many legendary jams from this period. But 97-04 is just unrivaled as far as the combination of energy, creativity, and cohesion. Yes, there were more jams and they were longer, and sometimes they didn't go anywhere, but by far the most transcendent Phish moments came from this phase.
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Old 05-20-2020, 07:33 AM   #44
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Honestly haven't had much of a chance to dig into Phish's catalog or watch many shows. Last night was a great entry point for me. I may not get it like Phish fans, but I certainly respect how you could dig them.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:10 AM   #45
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You are definitely in the minority ;-)

I will say that 3.0 Phish has more of a mature, composed sound, and there have certainly been many legendary jams from this period. But 97-04 is just unrivaled as far as the combination of energy, creativity, and cohesion. Yes, there were more jams and they were longer, and sometimes they didn't go anywhere, but by far the most transcendent Phish moments came from this phase.
Yeah I mean I love all the eras and to each their own for sure. I really enjoy the “major” blissful peak type jamming they do now, even though they use it as a crutch sometimes. Some of my favorite jams of all time come from 3.0 too, and I’ve listened to hundreds of shows.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:44 AM   #46
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"Many legendary jams" from 3.0? I can't think of one I would put in that category.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:49 AM   #47
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"Many legendary jams" from 3.0? I can't think of one I would put in that category.
There were 2 just last year: Alpine Ruby Waves and MSG Tweezer
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Old 05-20-2020, 02:12 PM   #48
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Roi killed that spot. Fk, I miss him.
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Old 05-20-2020, 02:27 PM   #49
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MOORE SOUL
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Old 05-20-2020, 02:55 PM   #50
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MOORE SOUL
Anything less is unsatisfactory..
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Old 05-20-2020, 03:44 PM   #51
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Anything less is unsatisfactory..
Roi's melodies were beautiful. He played an improvisational style that epitomizes early DMB. It's crazy to think the band has been functioning for almost as long as they did with him (without splitting hairs, something like 16 years with and 12 without).

That's a significant amount of time to have tied in with Jeff. Not taking anything from Jeff as I love his style and abilities as well, but they just never seemed to SOUND like DMB.

Roi may never have been the best technical saxophonist, but Roi wasn't about technical mastery: the dude was about getting a feeling and living in that moment on stage.

Jeff was the best possible replacement, but there is still only one Leroi Moore. Roi was my favorite OG member so yeah, I'm biased.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:29 PM   #52
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"Many legendary jams" from 3.0? I can't think of one I would put in that category.
Bakers dozen alone had about 3-5 jams alone that compete with some of the best. I don’t like saying anything is “better” than another, but there are jams equivalently awesome. Also DWD of 12/30/17 comes to mind. But really, depends on your taste of jams. I prefer when they have multiple themes and get exploratory. Though I do love the 7/6/98 Ghost too that just shreds. The jamming is much more layered in 3.0. At times it sounds like there’s much more than 4 guys on stage. I like that.
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Old 05-20-2020, 05:40 PM   #53
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I learned two things from watching Roi's guest spot - I miss Roi a lot, and I really hate Phish.
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Old 05-20-2020, 06:22 PM   #54
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There were 2 just last year: Alpine Ruby Waves and MSG Tweezer
These two. Also:

Tahoe Tweezer
Bethel Waves
Dicks' Light
MSG Ghost 2010
Magnaball Tweezer>Caspian
Vegas Golden Age
Chicago Simple
Alpharetta Carini
Bakers Dozen Lawn Boy, Scents, Swept Away, Drowned>ASIHTOS, Chalkdust
Basically all of Fall 2013

I thought of those in like 15 seconds and any of those would hold up to 1.0/2.0. Could easily find more by looking through setlists.
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Old 05-20-2020, 06:42 PM   #55
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I learned two things from watching Roi's guest spot - I miss Roi a lot, and I really hate Phish.


I like Phish's studio albums a lot more than their live stuff. Blasphemy, I know.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:18 PM   #56
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I like Phish's studio albums a lot more than their live stuff. Blasphemy, I know.
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Yep. I'm a pretty big Phish fan,
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:21 PM   #57
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Yep. I like them a lot and listen to them a lot.

I just don't need 20 minute versions of every song. I enjoy the tightness of the albums. And honestly, they make a lot of mistakes live. Some people don't mind that, I do.

That's not to say that I don't like some of their live stuff. Just prefer the other.
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Old 05-21-2020, 10:17 AM   #58
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Don't know that I'd say a lot of mistakes live...assuming you are talking about composed tunes here. I mean to each their own, but I personally can't imagine liking Phish, just not the live stuff. That being said, there is plenty of things I enjoy about the studio albums.
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Old 05-21-2020, 01:04 PM   #59
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Yep. I like them a lot and listen to them a lot.

I just don't need 20 minute versions of every song. I enjoy the tightness of the albums. And honestly, they make a lot of mistakes live. Some people don't mind that, I do.

That's not to say that I don't like some of their live stuff. Just prefer the other.
This is definitely a unique, hot take. Don't know too many big phans that prefer the studio stuff. Yeah, they make mistakes but they also barely repeat songs in an entire tour. I'll take some flubs here and there for having the spontaneity and the diversity and unpredictability of the setlists.

One of the biggest reasons I love Phish is because I never know what's going to happen. I'd rather have an exploratory jam experience live than hear the same song played super tight and 100% identical every time.

That's why Phish and DMB are the only bands I'd ever consider seeing more than once per year/tour, because they actually vary it up. In Phish's case, it's varied to the nth degree, even from song to song, you never know if something's going to go out there or not experimental wise.
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Old 05-21-2020, 03:39 PM   #60
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This is definitely a unique, hot take. Don't know too many big phans that prefer the studio stuff. Yeah, they make mistakes but they also barely repeat songs in an entire tour. I'll take some flubs here and there for having the spontaneity and the diversity and unpredictability of the setlists.

One of the biggest reasons I love Phish is because I never know what's going to happen. I'd rather have an exploratory jam experience live than hear the same song played super tight and 100% identical every time.

That's why Phish and DMB are the only bands I'd ever consider seeing more than once per year/tour, because they actually vary it up. In Phish's case, it's varied to the nth degree, even from song to song, you never know if something's going to go out there or not experimental wise.
Yeah, I'm just not that into exploratory jams.

I enjoy more structured jams (like DMB) or intricate, arranged instrumental parts (like early Chicago). Hearing something played well is more important to me than surprise or spontaneity.
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