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Old 08-31-2017, 12:44 PM   #81
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Tim is currently the only member that plays anything remotely interesting though. I would hate to see him go. I think a lot could be done with just toning down his rig a little bit--less overdrive/distortion...more clean tone, maybe work in the acoustic a little bit more.

You could be right about Jeff. But Jeff was doing a lot, and shredding solos back in '09 and '10 when Rashawn was still there. So, I'm not sure we can fully blame Rashawn for how Jeff's role has changed. Jeff himself could be enjoying the "musical direction" for all we know. I think he's been clear that he doesn't want to be Roi or even attempt to be.

And yeah, I know Bela is unrealistic as can be, but it's a pipedream for me. Unfortunately for your sake, I really don't see them doing anything with the lineup. I would be utterly shocked.
I do agree it would help a bit if Tim scaled it back some, but for me personally it still wouldn't do much for the overall sound because Rashawn is still involved. Someone mentioned Tim playing acoustic throughout an entire show and THAT would be interesting. I don't think what he's doing now is very interesting at all.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning Jeff not wanting to be Roi. I don't recall ever saying that, implying that, or ever reading on this board that someone wants that. Someone adding fills and tasteful layers through arrangements doesn't mean they're trying to copy someone. Rashawn had control of the horn section the moment Roi had that accident. So he helped Jeff's transition into the band (and Rashawn gets 100% credit for that) and Jeff's tone and flow are different from Roi so the first few years it was still new to a lot of people and the solos were packed full of power and aggressively playful riffs pushing Carter to react quicker than he was used to during a sax solo on say a #41 for example. But when the solos started to either go away, tone down, or started to be shared with Rashawn, that's when it became noticeable to people. It's not that in 2009 Jeff was adding all kinds of improvised riffs and sections throughout all the songs and then it suddenly stopped. In reality he never really had that freedom. After finally becoming comfortable with the songs he learned, that knowledge was basically wasted on horn riffs guided by Rashawn. Any show I've been to over the last 8 years, I always see Rashawn queuing Jeff to get ready for a horn riff on top of Tim's solo, or wherever. So when I can clearly see someone directing, and talent just being wasted...yeah I do blame Rashawn. And hey look I'm happy for Jeff though, dude is making sweet cash, he's a bit famous now, and he deserves it all. It's just my personal preference in how the band's sound/direction has gone.

I agree with you that what I would love to see happen with this band, won't happen. I think Rob is right in that some things are just unrealistic. In your case, I think your desire for Tim's tone to change a bit is much more realistic than someone leaving the band.
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:05 PM   #82
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I'm not sure why you're mentioning Jeff not wanting to be Roi. I don't recall ever saying that, implying that, or ever reading on this board that someone wants that. Someone adding fills and tasteful layers through arrangements doesn't mean they're trying to copy someone. Rashawn had control of the horn section the moment Roi had that accident. So he helped Jeff's transition into the band (and Rashawn gets 100% credit for that) and Jeff's tone and flow are different from Roi so the first few years it was still new to a lot of people and the solos were packed full of power and aggressively playful riffs pushing Carter to react quicker than he was used to during a sax solo on say a #41 for example. But when the solos started to either go away, tone down, or started to be shared with Rashawn, that's when it became noticeable to people. It's not that in 2009 Jeff was adding all kinds of improvised riffs and sections throughout all the songs and then it suddenly stopped. In reality he never really had that freedom. After finally becoming comfortable with the songs he learned, that knowledge was basically wasted on horn riffs guided by Rashawn. Any show I've been to over the last 8 years, I always see Rashawn queuing Jeff to get ready for a horn riff on top of Tim's solo, or wherever. So when I can clearly see someone directing, and talent just being wasted...yeah I do blame Rashawn. And hey look I'm happy for Jeff though, dude is making sweet cash, he's a bit famous now, and he deserves it all. It's just my personal preference in how the band's sound/direction has gone.
I really disagree with you about Jeff. I hear what you're saying, but I just see it differently. He had plenty of freedom in '08-'10. Sure, he was still learning songs and being helped by Rashawn, but he was soloing and shredding songs in his own style and throwing licks all over the place. It did suddenly stop. I think that was pretty clear. Listen to shows from '09 and '10 again, and then from the last couple years. I mean, it's drastic to me. That changed drastically from '11 onward, we know that. So, something happened. But it's almost like you're implying that Rashawn told him to basically scale and cut back and just play cheesy horn lines and I doubt that's the case. I think at the very minimum Jeff willingly and consciously wanted to scale things back and take a more minimal role. I don't think he was nessecarily "coerced" or "directed" to do it. How do we know he doesn't love doing horn lines and adding that stuff? Maybe he prefers it too?

Seems like most people on here put no blame on Jeff when it comes to his scaled back role, as if the entire band sat him down and told him to stop soloing so much or something. I think we have to also blame Jeff himself because I happen to believe it was more HIS choice than anything else. I don't know for sure, none of us do, but we can't rule that out either until someone actually admits what the deal is with that.
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:16 PM   #83
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Yeah, the easiest change they can make right now is to have Tim cut back on his aggressive rock tone and play more clean electric and throw the acoustic in there more, on the songs where it would sound good. There's certain songs where that overdriven/distorted tone work..(Last Stop, Halloween, YMDT, Squirm, DDTW, Watchtower etc. the heavier songs). But sometimes he tends to use it on songs that used to be more mellow like Crush, OSW, Satellite and I don't like his use of it on songs like that.

I do agree that his playing on the acoustic this summer was definitely much more interesting, but part of that is because he's the ONLY soloist, and has to be interesting otherwise it gets stale quick. I think if he scaled his tone back and played with some more creativity and freedom it would help a lot. Rather than just playing loud, fast and aggressively. I think that would also make Carter play more like he used to as well, instead of feeling the need to keep pace with that heavier sound.
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:53 AM   #84
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Old 09-03-2017, 09:09 AM   #85
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I really disagree with you about Jeff. I hear what you're saying, but I just see it differently. He had plenty of freedom in '08-'10. Sure, he was still learning songs and being helped by Rashawn, but he was soloing and shredding songs in his own style and throwing licks all over the place. It did suddenly stop. I think that was pretty clear. Listen to shows from '09 and '10 again, and then from the last couple years. I mean, it's drastic to me. That changed drastically from '11 onward, we know that. So, something happened. But it's almost like you're implying that Rashawn told him to basically scale and cut back and just play cheesy horn lines and I doubt that's the case. I think at the very minimum Jeff willingly and consciously wanted to scale things back and take a more minimal role. I don't think he was nessecarily "coerced" or "directed" to do it. How do we know he doesn't love doing horn lines and adding that stuff? Maybe he prefers it too?

Seems like most people on here put no blame on Jeff when it comes to his scaled back role, as if the entire band sat him down and told him to stop soloing so much or something. I think we have to also blame Jeff himself because I happen to believe it was more HIS choice than anything else. I don't know for sure, none of us do, but we can't rule that out either until someone actually admits what the deal is with that.

Can you post, at the very least, 10 performances from each year from 2008, '09 and '10 where Jeff was throwing "licks all over the place"? Not solos, but random lines inside a pocket or verse throughout an entire song? I'm talking actual performances, not just song titles. Not trying to be a dick, I just honestly can't pin-point specific performances that match your descriptions. I mean there were a few performances during those years where he was fishing a bit, getting his feet wet, and that was interesting but it's not close to the level that you seem to remember. We must be listening to two different bands because you're making it seem like he was just adding in all kinds of stems and improvised lines throughout the majority of DMB's songs from 2008 to 2010 and that's 100% not the case. Like I said, he stood out more during those years because his style and tone were so new to the fanbase. So what it truly boils down to is the soloing and he's not going balls out on every #41. And what I'm implying is what I've seen with my own eyes. I've seen Rashawn "direct" Jeff, whether it be a horn line drowning out someone else taking a solo, or when and where to solo. Sometimes Dave makes that call too. You can see him motion over to Jeff or Rashawn to take the next one.

Jeff is still a strong player so it's not that he's getting old and can't wail anything out anymore. Any time any fan has ever spoken to him and praised his soloing, he says he loves it and loves playing against Carter, so it's not like he doesn't enjoy going balls out. From everything we know of Jeff as a player and the things he's said as a person, there's no reason to think or even assume he just doesn't want to do what he had been doing since he came aboard. Also, as a player, especially an extremely attentive player at that, Jeff's additions to music are subtle and tasteful and the only two things that I can't see him doing on his own is 1) coming up with cheesy horn riffs drowning out other musicians solos, especially guests, and that also comes down to being a tasteful player which Jeff was and still is, and 2) suddenly deciding to not do something that Carter, Dave, Stefan, Tim and Boyd love hearing and witnessing which is going all out on a solo, so the ONLY other explanation is the man standing 5 feet to his right who literally directs Jeff to do these things, or not do these things is in fact guiding the direction of how and when the horns are played.

I don't think Jeff is standing there with handcuffs, but he's making an ass-ton of money, touring the world comfortably, and he's pretty famous now so he's willing going to go with the flow, and if that means Rashawn tells him how to play a riff or line, or if Dave directs Tim to take on most of the soloing, then of course Jeff is going to go along with it. So if you want to blame Jeff, then blame him in that regard. But Jeff most certainly isn't making big band decisions on his own ad that's pretty evident of everything people know, have heard and seen regarding Jeff as a player and person, and also the surrounding factors, so that's reason why you don't see people blaming Jeff for anything.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:19 PM   #86
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I'm not sure if I can recall one time Jeff played non-set random lines throughout a song in those years the same way Roi would in songs like Rapunzel, Seek Up, Grey Street, etc. Maybe LITHOG, Say Bye, or an acoustic set performance though

he and Rashawn are just a package deal. Unless one of them are taking individual solos, they're usually playing the same lines together.
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Old 09-03-2017, 01:10 PM   #87
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I'm not sure if I can recall one time Jeff played non-set random lines throughout a song in those years the same way Roi would in songs like Rapunzel, Seek Up, Grey Street, etc. Maybe LITHOG, Say Bye, or an acoustic set performance though

he and Rashawn are just a package deal. Unless one of them are taking individual solos, they're usually playing the same lines together.
One of the reasons I love Bismarck is because Jeff plays throughout, the way Roi used to.
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Old 09-03-2017, 02:01 PM   #88
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I'm not sure why you're mentioning Jeff not wanting to be Roi. I don't recall ever saying that, implying that, or ever reading on this board that someone wants that. Someone adding fills and tasteful layers through arrangements doesn't mean they're trying to copy someone.
I went a sax clinic here in Toronto about 4-5 years ago and Jeff specifically said he's making a concerted effort to not just do Roi. He's doing him hoping what he's doing is honouring the music.
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Old 09-05-2017, 09:41 AM   #89
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One of the reasons I love Bismarck is because Jeff plays throughout, the way Roi used to.
Love it. That's a good example. Part of the reason why Bismarck sounds like vintage DMB to me.
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Old 09-06-2017, 12:11 PM   #90
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I'm not sure if I can recall one time Jeff played non-set random lines throughout a song in those years the same way Roi would in songs like Rapunzel, Seek Up, Grey Street, etc. Maybe LITHOG, Say Bye, or an acoustic set performance though

he and Rashawn are just a package deal. Unless one of them are taking individual solos, they're usually playing the same lines together.
I love Jeff but that element is sorely missing in the music. Gave versions of songs a bit more of a distinct feel whereas the horn section style makes things feel a bit too sterile over time.
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:58 AM   #91
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Can you post, at the very least, 10 performances from each year from 2008, '09 and '10 where Jeff was throwing "licks all over the place"? Not solos, but random lines inside a pocket or verse throughout an entire song? I'm talking actual performances, not just song titles. Not trying to be a dick, I just honestly can't pin-point specific performances that match your descriptions. I mean there were a few performances during those years where he was fishing a bit, getting his feet wet, and that was interesting but it's not close to the level that you seem to remember. We must be listening to two different bands because you're making it seem like he was just adding in all kinds of stems and improvised lines throughout the majority of DMB's songs from 2008 to 2010 and that's 100% not the case. Like I said, he stood out more during those years because his style and tone were so new to the fanbase. So what it truly boils down to is the soloing and he's not going balls out on every #41. And what I'm implying is what I've seen with my own eyes. I've seen Rashawn "direct" Jeff, whether it be a horn line drowning out someone else taking a solo, or when and where to solo. Sometimes Dave makes that call too. You can see him motion over to Jeff or Rashawn to take the next one.
You're right. I'm having a hard time finding good examples, so maybe he wasn't really doing what I thought he was. Clearly though, his role has been scaled back and changed because its a common discussion topic on the forums on a daily basis, so I'm not the only person noticing it. And I think you're right about him standing out because he has a different style, but to be honest, he really solos a lot less than he used to. That is something I have definitley noticed. Very few songs are just a solo Jeff spot....it's almost always a shared battle solo between him and Rashawn. That's the worst part. I like that battle in like Jimi Thing for example, but they do it on almost every song with a solo section now. Why can't Jeff just take the solo himself on Rapunzel or Grey Street and Rashawn can have Proudest and some other ones? Even Seek Up that used to be just a Roi solo is now just another battle. I'm tried of the battles, it's way overused in everything.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:44 AM   #92
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Old 09-11-2017, 06:15 PM   #93
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A random thing: They need to put everything on Spotify. I'm sure they wouldn't get as much Live Trax $$ in the long run, but they should do it.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:04 AM   #94
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A random thing: They need to put everything on Spotify. I'm sure they wouldn't get as much Live Trax $$ in the long run, but they should do it.
Yup. At least put up some of it. They could at the very least give us Live Trax 1-10 on there. Those came out a long time ago at this point, and doubt they are really "selling" all that much still.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:40 PM   #95
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Yea I agree, phish has a shit ton of their music on there. DMB pales in comparison, just another thing I don't understand.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:57 AM   #96
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A random thing: They need to put everything on Spotify. I'm sure they wouldn't get as much Live Trax $$ in the long run, but they should do it.
Agreed.
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:12 AM   #97
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Let Rashawn go. Have Butch Taylor come back so it could be both and Tim adding to the music.
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