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Old 04-25-2018, 05:38 PM   #21
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This song didn’t catch on for me until I heard the 2008 version of it. Now I get it...2004 is obviously the best period for Sugar Will. Good vs sweet never bothered me
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:17 PM   #22
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Best song they've written since YNK, followed closely by Shotgun, and nothing else comes close to either of those IMO.

/thread
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Old 04-26-2018, 02:01 AM   #23
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Best song they've written since YNK, followed closely by Shotgun, and nothing else comes close to either of those IMO.

/thread
Shotgun was never even finished and consisted mainly of Dave yelling. Great guitar riff, but barely a full song really. And once the lyrics were “set” they weren’t very good. There are songs on both BW and AFTW I’d put ahead of Shotgun. Most overrated song in the catalog. I love it too, but I wouldn’t say it’s one of their best.
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Old 04-26-2018, 06:47 AM   #24
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Shotgun was never even finished and consisted mainly of Dave yelling. Great guitar riff, but barely a full song really. And once the lyrics were “set” they weren’t very good. There are songs on both BW and AFTW I’d put ahead of Shotgun.
Agreed. Shotgun still doesn’t feel like a proper song to me. But in 06/07, the new song bar was so low, it seemed great to me. Then stuff like LITHOG, Squirm, WIA and Spaceman came out and reminded me what a finished DMB song sounded like, and I became way less into Shotgun, which now I just find plodding and mechanical.

Anyway, back to Sugar Will. Which is another unfinished song, but in the best way. Where it’s based on a groove that the band can improvise and jam over.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:17 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by greykitkat36 View Post
Shotgun was never even finished and consisted mainly of Dave yelling. Great guitar riff, but barely a full song really. And once the lyrics were “set” they weren’t very good. There are songs on both BW and AFTW I’d put ahead of Shotgun. Most overrated song in the catalog. I love it too, but I wouldn’t say it’s one of their best.

I agree with this. After the 06/07 renditions, the song fell flat on its face.
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:49 AM   #26
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In-Depth Song Discussion #5—Sugar Will

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The shaker. What an interesting idea. Of course he dropped that for the straight hat “groove” in subsequent years, but that he thought to use a shaker instead of hats for the intro/verses/decrescendo in 2004 really really aided the ominous fog they were rolling in during those intros. Difficult to nail down a description of how those made me feel. Even Fonz was “soloing” in a way that was perfectly fitting in that situation.

But anyhow, the shaker: you can hear when he switches between that and two sticks during the song of course, but without a single misstep. He was probably just figuring it out at the time, but listening back, it seems planned and flawless. I dont know how many percussionists we have here, but that is not as easy as it seems. Especially grabbing that shaker and shedding a stick during his tom fills back into the verse - pretty cool stuff.

Carter has always been forward-thinking in his use of the hats. Adding rhythms, subtracting beats from a groove (Satellite, to name one), and generally killing it in the “hat-slip” department (open hit into closed stomp on the pedal). The way he uses the hats to express the 7/8 feel of the chorus in Sugar Will is pretty awesome. Heavy use in the transitions as well.

We all know he’s got a great memory for symmetrical “motifs” for lack of a better term. Some of them he stumbles into and just repeats as necessary to give the impression that he planned it, some are recurring. That’s pretty jazz and sometimes pretty quick-thinking. Especially in the later 04 versions of Sugar Will, we can hear him falling into those (9.3.04 is again my benchmark). But when you listen to the end of those jams, keep in mind as they break it down he has grabbed the shaker again and is not only putting an almost “soloy” sounding touch on the fills, but is also pulling off those hi-hat fills with one hand WHILE keeping the shaker going. That is some badass shit.

Somehow, Carter made Sugar Will a playground without stepping on any toes or taking away from anyone else’s parts. The same could be said of each musician on this tune. Very subtle and unassuming while being quite impressive. Just a real swagger to this song (in 04). I think maybe he aimed at the same thing with the sparseness of Dreamgirl but totally missed the mark. You can even see evidence of that in his subsequent live-performances of Dreamgirl, as he adds a straight hat groove. I’m pissed that I had to draw a comparison between those two songs, but it really just helps proving that Sugar Will was a piece of magic stumbled into by exactly the musicians it needed.
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:49 AM   #27
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That’s the kind of post I’m talking about! Awesome. Now I have to go listen to that performance again...
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:57 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayes View Post
The shaker. What an interesting idea. Of course he dropped that for the straight hat “groove” in subsequent years, but that he thought to use a shaker instead of hats for the intro/verses/decrescendo in 2004 really really aided the ominous fog they were rolling in during those intros. Difficult to nail down a description of how those made me feel. Even Fonz was “soloing” in a way that was perfectly fitting in that situation.

But anyhow, the shaker: you can hear when he switches between that and two sticks during the song of course, but without a single misstep. He was probably just figuring it out at the time, but listening back, it seems planned and flawless. I dont know how many percussionists we have here, but that is not as easy as it seems. Especially grabbing that shaker and shedding a stick during his tom fills back into the verse - pretty cool stuff.

Carter has always been forward-thinking in his use of the hats. Adding rhythms, subtracting beats from a groove (Satellite, to name one), and generally killing it in the “hat-slip” department (open hit into closed stomp on the pedal). The way he uses the hats to express the 7/8 feel of the chorus in Sugar Will is pretty awesome. Heavy use in the transitions as well.

We all know he’s got a great memory for symmetrical “motifs” for lack of a better term. Some of them he stumbles into and just repeats as necessary to give the impression that he planned it, some are recurring. That’s pretty jazz and sometimes pretty quick-thinking. Especially in the later 04 versions of Sugar Will, we can hear him falling into those (9.3.04 is again my benchmark). But when you listen to the end of those jams, keep in mind as they break it down he has grabbed the shaker again and is not only putting an almost “soloy” sounding touch on the fills, but is also pulling off those hi-hat fills with one hand WHILE keeping the shaker going. That is some badass shit.

Somehow, Carter made Sugar Will a playground without stepping on any toes or taking away from anyone else’s parts. The same could be said of each musician on this tune. Very subtle and unassuming while being quite impressive. Just a real swagger to this song (in 04). I think maybe he aimed at the same thing with the sparseness of Dreamgirl but totally missed the mark. You can even see evidence of that in his subsequent live-performances of Dreamgirl, as he adds a straight hat groove. I’m pissed that I had to draw a comparison between those two songs, but it really just helps proving that Sugar Will was a piece of magic stumbled into by exactly the musicians it needed.
As a drummer/percussionists, you nailed it.

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Old 04-26-2018, 10:24 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greykitkat36 View Post
Shotgun was never even finished and consisted mainly of Dave yelling. Great guitar riff, but barely a full song really. And once the lyrics were “set” they weren’t very good. There are songs on both BW and AFTW I’d put ahead of Shotgun. Most overrated song in the catalog. I love it too, but I wouldn’t say it’s one of their best.
The Charlottesville Shotgun in 06 is where they needed to stop with that song. That is the perfect Shotgun IMO.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:25 AM   #30
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This thread needs more videos

Sugar Will (9.3.04) - this is THE performance


8.4.04


10.1.04


11.10.15


6.10.16
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:30 AM   #31
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'04 versions were sweet. While Tim is very good on the current versions the horn intro is weird, the chorus lyric switch is dumb, and Dave's great guitar part is deemphasized. Still better than most of the stuff they've done from the last decade, just feels like almost all the changes to the song were detrimental.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:37 AM   #32
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I'd love to hear D/T give it a go.
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:06 AM   #33
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I'd love to hear D/T give it a go.
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:28 AM   #34
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haha not sure how I missed that. Thanks man.
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:44 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayes View Post
The shaker. What an interesting idea. Of course he dropped that for the straight hat “groove” in subsequent years, but that he thought to use a shaker instead of hats for the intro/verses/decrescendo in 2004 really really aided the ominous fog they were rolling in during those intros. Difficult to nail down a description of how those made me feel. Even Fonz was “soloing” in a way that was perfectly fitting in that situation.

But anyhow, the shaker: you can hear when he switches between that and two sticks during the song of course, but without a single misstep. He was probably just figuring it out at the time, but listening back, it seems planned and flawless. I dont know how many percussionists we have here, but that is not as easy as it seems. Especially grabbing that shaker and shedding a stick during his tom fills back into the verse - pretty cool stuff.

Carter has always been forward-thinking in his use of the hats. Adding rhythms, subtracting beats from a groove (Satellite, to name one), and generally killing it in the “hat-slip” department (open hit into closed stomp on the pedal). The way he uses the hats to express the 7/8 feel of the chorus in Sugar Will is pretty awesome. Heavy use in the transitions as well.

We all know he’s got a great memory for symmetrical “motifs” for lack of a better term. Some of them he stumbles into and just repeats as necessary to give the impression that he planned it, some are recurring. That’s pretty jazz and sometimes pretty quick-thinking. Especially in the later 04 versions of Sugar Will, we can hear him falling into those (9.3.04 is again my benchmark). But when you listen to the end of those jams, keep in mind as they break it down he has grabbed the shaker again and is not only putting an almost “soloy” sounding touch on the fills, but is also pulling off those hi-hat fills with one hand WHILE keeping the shaker going. That is some badass shit.

Somehow, Carter made Sugar Will a playground without stepping on any toes or taking away from anyone else’s parts. The same could be said of each musician on this tune. Very subtle and unassuming while being quite impressive. Just a real swagger to this song (in 04). I think maybe he aimed at the same thing with the sparseness of Dreamgirl but totally missed the mark. You can even see evidence of that in his subsequent live-performances of Dreamgirl, as he adds a straight hat groove. I’m pissed that I had to draw a comparison between those two songs, but it really just helps proving that Sugar Will was a piece of magic stumbled into by exactly the musicians it needed.

I think both you and Thrawn should connect.
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Old 04-26-2018, 04:23 PM   #36
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This thread needs more videos

Sugar Will (9.3.04) - this is THE performance


8.4.04


10.1.04


11.10.15


6.10.16
Thanks for these videos, every one of these threads should have these in there. Man that 9/3/04 version is great. That intro has that two step vibe and what a smooth jam. Love it. The recent versions don’t have that feel at all, and I doubt it would in a studio version either.
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Old 04-26-2018, 09:01 PM   #37
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I will admit to sometimes feeling the 2004 versions went on a tad too long. But I still really miss being able to hear each musician. Even Boyd's plucking fit the song.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:18 PM   #38
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I will admit to sometimes feeling the 2004 versions went on a tad too long. But I still really miss being able to hear each musician. Even Boyd's plucking fit the song.

I mean you can say that about a lot of DMb over the years. Those Bartenders and LIOG with Butch went on FOREVER sometimes and same thing recently with songs like If Only, Jimi etc. the difference is that the set lists and playing was far superior so it didn’t matter as much.
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:06 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayes View Post
The shaker. What an interesting idea. Of course he dropped that for the straight hat “groove” in subsequent years, but that he thought to use a shaker instead of hats for the intro/verses/decrescendo in 2004 really really aided the ominous fog they were rolling in during those intros. Difficult to nail down a description of how those made me feel. Even Fonz was “soloing” in a way that was perfectly fitting in that situation.

But anyhow, the shaker: you can hear when he switches between that and two sticks during the song of course, but without a single misstep. He was probably just figuring it out at the time, but listening back, it seems planned and flawless. I dont know how many percussionists we have here, but that is not as easy as it seems. Especially grabbing that shaker and shedding a stick during his tom fills back into the verse - pretty cool stuff.

Carter has always been forward-thinking in his use of the hats. Adding rhythms, subtracting beats from a groove (Satellite, to name one), and generally killing it in the “hat-slip” department (open hit into closed stomp on the pedal). The way he uses the hats to express the 7/8 feel of the chorus in Sugar Will is pretty awesome. Heavy use in the transitions as well.

We all know he’s got a great memory for symmetrical “motifs” for lack of a better term. Some of them he stumbles into and just repeats as necessary to give the impression that he planned it, some are recurring. That’s pretty jazz and sometimes pretty quick-thinking. Especially in the later 04 versions of Sugar Will, we can hear him falling into those (9.3.04 is again my benchmark). But when you listen to the end of those jams, keep in mind as they break it down he has grabbed the shaker again and is not only putting an almost “soloy” sounding touch on the fills, but is also pulling off those hi-hat fills with one hand WHILE keeping the shaker going. That is some badass shit.

Somehow, Carter made Sugar Will a playground without stepping on any toes or taking away from anyone else’s parts. The same could be said of each musician on this tune. Very subtle and unassuming while being quite impressive. Just a real swagger to this song (in 04). I think maybe he aimed at the same thing with the sparseness of Dreamgirl but totally missed the mark. You can even see evidence of that in his subsequent live-performances of Dreamgirl, as he adds a straight hat groove. I’m pissed that I had to draw a comparison between those two songs, but it really just helps proving that Sugar Will was a piece of magic stumbled into by exactly the musicians it needed.
Incredible post...

I love the song history feel of these threads.
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:53 PM   #40
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One of the best songs on guitar for a pinky workout that’s for sure.
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