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Old 04-28-2018, 12:25 PM   #41
hobbesthecat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrawn View Post
My favorite little Dave-ian weirdness in this song is how, after a few performances, he changed the part right after the chorus.

First, a small bit of background - the verse to Sugar Will is in the usual 4/4 time, but the chorus isn't, it's in 7/8 time, so the last half beat of each measure is omitted. If you don't know music theory, this is a good song to get a sense of this kind of thing from, because the riff is totally regular 8th note patterns. You can count "1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8" over top of each repeat of the riff in the verse very clearly, and if you do the same thing in the chorus you'll notice you only count "1-2-3-4-5-6-7".

Anyway. There's the last line of the chorus "not so... sweet", then the two clearly defined riffs, then there's this section where the patterning of the guitar riff becomes ambiguous. What's going on there is that the song is back in 4/4, but Dave is playing the riff in patterns of 7 like the chorus! This means that they don't line up; each repeat of the verse riff happens a half-beat earlier, until the end of that little section where he plays the first four eighth notes of the riff again to make up the difference.

This would be cool as hell anyway, but the fact that the song alternates between 7/8 and 4/4 in the two different sections means that him making this particular creative choice here basically puts the two sections of the song on top of each other, a nicely unifying touch. It's a bit like how Carter plays the verse rhythm on the ride bell during the Grey Street chorus; a subtle little thing that keeps the song feeling whole, not made of disparate parts.

(This sort of thing has been lacking in Dave's more recent songwriting; consider how jarring the break in Shake Me Like A Monkey is, for instance. But I digress.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayes View Post
The shaker. What an interesting idea. Of course he dropped that for the straight hat “groove” in subsequent years, but that he thought to use a shaker instead of hats for the intro/verses/decrescendo in 2004 really really aided the ominous fog they were rolling in during those intros. Difficult to nail down a description of how those made me feel. Even Fonz was “soloing” in a way that was perfectly fitting in that situation.

But anyhow, the shaker: you can hear when he switches between that and two sticks during the song of course, but without a single misstep. He was probably just figuring it out at the time, but listening back, it seems planned and flawless. I dont know how many percussionists we have here, but that is not as easy as it seems. Especially grabbing that shaker and shedding a stick during his tom fills back into the verse - pretty cool stuff.

Carter has always been forward-thinking in his use of the hats. Adding rhythms, subtracting beats from a groove (Satellite, to name one), and generally killing it in the “hat-slip” department (open hit into closed stomp on the pedal). The way he uses the hats to express the 7/8 feel of the chorus in Sugar Will is pretty awesome. Heavy use in the transitions as well.

We all know he’s got a great memory for symmetrical “motifs” for lack of a better term. Some of them he stumbles into and just repeats as necessary to give the impression that he planned it, some are recurring. That’s pretty jazz and sometimes pretty quick-thinking. Especially in the later 04 versions of Sugar Will, we can hear him falling into those (9.3.04 is again my benchmark). But when you listen to the end of those jams, keep in mind as they break it down he has grabbed the shaker again and is not only putting an almost “soloy” sounding touch on the fills, but is also pulling off those hi-hat fills with one hand WHILE keeping the shaker going. That is some badass shit.

Somehow, Carter made Sugar Will a playground without stepping on any toes or taking away from anyone else’s parts. The same could be said of each musician on this tune. Very subtle and unassuming while being quite impressive. Just a real swagger to this song (in 04). I think maybe he aimed at the same thing with the sparseness of Dreamgirl but totally missed the mark. You can even see evidence of that in his subsequent live-performances of Dreamgirl, as he adds a straight hat groove. I’m pissed that I had to draw a comparison between those two songs, but it really just helps proving that Sugar Will was a piece of magic stumbled into by exactly the musicians it needed.
out of all the "professional" blog reviews like stereogum and p4k along with the thousands of fan postings

these 2 are excellent summations and WOW - actually bringing in musical theory points too. NOT SARCASTIC, but a breath of fresh air and welcomed

nothing above the fray about this - just excellent points all around

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Old 04-28-2018, 03:07 PM   #42
sean52692
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Originally Posted by mja271 View Post
Tim is ALL OVER this version, damn. If/when we get a '17 D&T show released I really hope there is a solid bonus disc with some European tracks and this one makes it.
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Old 04-28-2018, 04:36 PM   #43
Thrawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayes View Post
The shaker. What an interesting idea. Of course he dropped that for the straight hat “groove” in subsequent years, but that he thought to use a shaker instead of hats for the intro/verses/decrescendo in 2004 really really aided the ominous fog they were rolling in during those intros. Difficult to nail down a description of how those made me feel. Even Fonz was “soloing” in a way that was perfectly fitting in that situation.

But anyhow, the shaker: you can hear when he switches between that and two sticks during the song of course, but without a single misstep. He was probably just figuring it out at the time, but listening back, it seems planned and flawless. I dont know how many percussionists we have here, but that is not as easy as it seems. Especially grabbing that shaker and shedding a stick during his tom fills back into the verse - pretty cool stuff.

Carter has always been forward-thinking in his use of the hats. Adding rhythms, subtracting beats from a groove (Satellite, to name one), and generally killing it in the “hat-slip” department (open hit into closed stomp on the pedal). The way he uses the hats to express the 7/8 feel of the chorus in Sugar Will is pretty awesome. Heavy use in the transitions as well.

We all know he’s got a great memory for symmetrical “motifs” for lack of a better term. Some of them he stumbles into and just repeats as necessary to give the impression that he planned it, some are recurring. That’s pretty jazz and sometimes pretty quick-thinking. Especially in the later 04 versions of Sugar Will, we can hear him falling into those (9.3.04 is again my benchmark). But when you listen to the end of those jams, keep in mind as they break it down he has grabbed the shaker again and is not only putting an almost “soloy” sounding touch on the fills, but is also pulling off those hi-hat fills with one hand WHILE keeping the shaker going. That is some badass shit.

Somehow, Carter made Sugar Will a playground without stepping on any toes or taking away from anyone else’s parts. The same could be said of each musician on this tune. Very subtle and unassuming while being quite impressive. Just a real swagger to this song (in 04). I think maybe he aimed at the same thing with the sparseness of Dreamgirl but totally missed the mark. You can even see evidence of that in his subsequent live-performances of Dreamgirl, as he adds a straight hat groove. I’m pissed that I had to draw a comparison between those two songs, but it really just helps proving that Sugar Will was a piece of magic stumbled into by exactly the musicians it needed.
Thanks for giving me an excuse to examine this song further! Carter really is incredible, all the way down to the small details. I watched the videos of the '04 Sugar Wills, and you're right, that transition back to the verse is nuts. 2:55 in the 8.4.04 version for a clear view, for anyone that hasn't picked up on this before.

In general, this post is awesome, and I hope you post more stuff about Carter's technique in future threads.
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:46 PM   #44
DMBTex10101
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I've always wondered if there is a specific reason why he seams to always bust this out when playing in England?

Can't be a coincidence that on the years where it just randomly shows up for one or two shows, that it's always England and nowhere else (2010, 2015, 2017).
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Old 04-29-2018, 08:36 PM   #45
sean52692
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Originally Posted by DMBTex10101 View Post
I've always wondered if there is a specific reason why he seams to always bust this out when playing in England?

Can't be a coincidence that on the years where it just randomly shows up for one or two shows, that it's always England and nowhere else (2010, 2015, 2017).
I think in 2010 they were chanting for it or they made signs and Dave obliged. Something along those lines. That was also how BEF came back in 2010.
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