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Old 05-22-2018, 09:40 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by gweeps View Post
Maybe it's simply the poor music exposing his weaknesses even more?
Perhaps.

I just never took much stock in the fact he was this magical lyricist. There are absolutely some really crappy lyrics in the more recent stuff but we can probably over analyze ever tune from 1991 - today and find "flaws".
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:44 AM   #162
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List the 5 worst lyrics from BTCS. Then, list the 5 worst lyrics from Come Tomorrow, just the song. I bet I know which is worse.
Well, I think we know the answer to that question. But thats one album, i'll give you that the LS was shaping up to be just as strong. For every Dreaming Tree, there were 5 sub-par lyrical tunes (Stay, Rapunzel, Halloween, Crush would be 4 off BTCS where I don't think those lyrics are great)

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Holy fuck, this fanbase is totally fucked


Do you really think Dave was the best lyricist of all time?
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:45 AM   #163
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Perhaps.

I just never took much stock in the fact he was this magical lyricist. There are absolutely some really crappy lyrics in the more recent stuff but we can probably over analyze ever tune from 1991 - today and find "flaws".
WWYS lyrics are just nonsense but the music and melody are so catchy and tight that you sing along. But the way the choruses and now even the verses are becoming so generic, it really does stand out.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:48 AM   #164
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WWYS lyrics are just nonsense but the music and melody are so catchy and tight that you sing along. But the way the choruses and now even the verses are becoming so generic, it really does stand out.
True, that riff is unique and catchy and lends itself to a sing along where the lyrics don't need to be deep.

I'm not defending the crappy lyrics he spews out about being a dad and loving his kids, just stating that he never really (outside of most of BTCS) had deep thought provoking lyrics to begin with.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:02 AM   #165
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I'm not defending the crappy lyrics he spews out about being a dad and loving his kids, just stating that he never really (outside of most of BTCS) had deep thought provoking lyrics to begin with.
I think generally speaking that's a bullshit take. But I'm not sure anyone is saying that "good" lyrics have to equate "deep thought provoking". Here's an example: LIOG. Not "deep" by dreaming tree standards, but evoke imagery, flow seamlessly with the music (most important), and actually does have a clever hidden meaning behind what's an upbeat song (being dead). Those are superb lyrics.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:04 AM   #166
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I think generally speaking that's a bullshit take. But I'm not sure anyone is saying that "good" lyrics have to equate "deep thought provoking". Here's an example: LIOG. Not "deep" by dreaming tree standards, but evoke imagery, flow seamlessly with the music (most important), and actually does have a clever hidden meaning behind what's an upbeat song (being dead). Those are superb lyrics.
That's a fair assesment that I honestly haven't thought about until now.

Maybe Bullshit take is a bit aggressive, we are all entitled to our takes as well. Not all of your takes are bullshit
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:05 AM   #167
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I think generally speaking that's a bullshit take. But I'm not sure anyone is saying that "good" lyrics have to equate "deep thought provoking". Here's an example: LIOG. Not "deep" by dreaming tree standards, but evoke imagery, flow seamlessly with the music (most important), and actually does have a clever hidden meaning behind what's an upbeat song (being dead). Those are superb lyrics.
Being dead is hidden? The song is called Lie in Our Graves. That is overt.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:07 AM   #168
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True, that riff is unique and catchy and lends itself to a sing along where the lyrics don't need to be deep.

I'm not defending the crappy lyrics he spews out about being a dad and loving his kids, just stating that he never really (outside of most of BTCS) had deep thought provoking lyrics to begin with.
I was mostly agreeing with you. The deep thought provoking lyrics are more of an exception. Even some of the ones that do speak to me can be the ones that are on the nose but speak to a situation more so than the use of the words/phrase. But the music elicits more of a feeling than many of the lyrics.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:15 AM   #169
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Being dead is hidden? The song is called Lie in Our Graves. That is overt.
Fair, kind of a hidden in plain sight, I really meant how the meaning contrasts with the upbeat feeling of the song. If you take a random person and have them listen to the song, most probably wouldn't think the song is about being dead on first listen. That's clever songwriting.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:22 AM   #170
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:31 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by typsitch View Post
Fair, kind of a hidden in plain sight, I really meant how the meaning contrasts with the upbeat feeling of the song. If you take a random person and have them listen to the song, most probably wouldn't think the song is about being dead on first listen. That's clever songwriting.
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering if we had spent our living days well
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering what we might of been
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering if we had spent our living days well
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering what we might of been

yeah, I mean there's really a lot of other meanings you can pull from this. If I was a random listener I would probably think this is about bullfighting
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:32 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by mja271 View Post
I think the profundity of Dave's lyrics was always a bit overstated but he had a good way of serving the song and wrote lyrics that just sounded good. Not everything has to be a lyrical masterpiece as long as it's just nice to listen to and flows with the music. I think some of the simplification of the music and him becoming way too overt and on the noise with his writing has made it stick out way more now.
Dave has never been a great lyricist -- what he's historically been really good at was having an interesting turn of phrase or two in his songs that would leave you impressed by the creativity.

The number of songs in DMB history where you think "Damn..." when it comes to writing is really small.

Also, FWIW (and I know this is a hot take): I don't think Dave's writing has fallen off *nearly* as much as much as people think. I'd put "Snow Outside" up against just about anything he's written, short of "Dreaming Tree" (which is just this massive outlier in quality for Dave -- to the point that it's a ridiculous standard to hold out for him).
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:34 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by sci22 View Post
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering if we had spent our living days well
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering what we might of been
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering if we had spent our living days well
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering what we might of been

yeah, I mean there's really a lot of other meanings you can pull from this. If I was a random listener I would probably think this is about bullfighting


I was going to say something to the same effect but it's typsitch so why bother?
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:36 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by sci22 View Post
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering if we had spent our living days well
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering what we might of been
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering if we had spent our living days well
I can't believe that we would lie in graves
wondering what we might of been

yeah, I mean there's really a lot of other meanings you can pull from this. If I was a random listener I would probably think this is about bullfighting
A first listen of those lyrics would make you think carpe diem, not sure you'd tie the whole song together back to "step into the light..." to realize the whole song was about being dead. Sure, some people would get that right away, not sure all would.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:40 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
Dave has never been a great lyricist -- what he's historically been really good at was having an interesting turn of phrase or two in his songs that would leave you impressed by the creativity.

The number of songs in DMB history where you think "Damn..." when it comes to writing is really small.

Also, FWIW (and I know this is a hot take): I don't think Dave's writing has fallen off *nearly* as much as much as people think. I'd put "Snow Outside" up against just about anything he's written, short of "Dreaming Tree" (which is just this massive outlier in quality for Dave -- to the point that it's a ridiculous standard to hold out for him).
I pretty much agree with this. He still has flashes of good clever writing, but it’s just much less now. It’s like 1/10 Lines if we’re lucky. Imagery is really the key. As Lillywhite pointed out, his lyrics used to have more of a “dreamlike” quality to them where he was painting pictures in your head with the words and a craftier way about them.

“The storm outside, the fires bright and in your eyes I see what’s on my mind, you got me wild, turned around inside”

It’s basicallt the same idea as in a lot of his songs, but these days he’d write something like “I see you there, pretty girl like to pull your hair, you make me feel good” or some crap. Very different approach
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:44 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by mja271 View Post
I think the profundity of Dave's lyrics was always a bit overstated but he had a good way of serving the song and wrote lyrics that just sounded good. Not everything has to be a lyrical masterpiece as long as it's just nice to listen to and flows with the music. I think some of the simplification of the music and him becoming way too overt and on the nose with his writing has made it stick out way more now.
well said


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Being dead is hidden? The song is called Lie in Our Graves. That is overt.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:45 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor View Post
Also, FWIW (and I know this is a hot take): I don't think Dave's writing has fallen off *nearly* as much as much as people think.
It's fallen off a cliff.

And fuck using Dreaming Tree as the standard, you could use any typical pre-01 song and come to the same conclusion.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:45 AM   #178
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:47 AM   #179
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Dave has never been a great lyricist -- what he's historically been really good at was having an interesting turn of phrase or two in his songs that would leave you impressed by the creativity.

The number of songs in DMB history where you think "Damn..." when it comes to writing is really small.

Also, FWIW (and I know this is a hot take): I don't think Dave's writing has fallen off *nearly* as much as much as people think. I'd put "Snow Outside" up against just about anything he's written, short of "Dreaming Tree" (which is just this massive outlier in quality for Dave -- to the point that it's a ridiculous standard to hold out for him).
The lows are much lower and the highs are much rarer.
The one thing really missing is specific imagery,the the hungry child, belly swelled, price or a coke or a smoke keep alive his hundry eyes verse in seek up.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:47 AM   #180
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A first listen of those lyrics would make you think carpe diem, not sure you'd tie the whole song together back to "step into the light..." to realize the whole song was about being dead. Sure, some people would get that right away, not sure all would.
Can you sing it emotionally in your car?? That's all that matters.
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