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Old 05-20-2021, 01:41 PM   #81
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I also think being nearly exposed for some of those '06 IOY lyrics closed up his freestyle, and solidified his transition into dad rock.
Come on, man.
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this isn't #dMbFaMiLy level shit. there's a whole spectrum of middle ground in between family and SeekUpAB
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Old 05-20-2021, 02:45 PM   #82
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Someone needs the balls to tell Dave to “try again” lyrically. That would go a long way.
That was Lillywhite in the early days.

I think it was in the MTV BTCS special where somebody said Dave would right lyrics and Steve would read them and say they were are good, but Dave could do better and send Dave back to the drawing board. The Lillywhite sessions were probably towards the end of producers pushing Dave to not just be good, but to be great in the producers eyes.

I believe it was said during AFTW that Steve took a more hands off approach as the band had evolved over the years and Dave was taking more charge and making decisions. I would guess Dave would push back and tell Steve that he is happy with takes or lyrics and it was good enough.
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Old 05-20-2021, 03:53 PM   #83
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That was Lillywhite in the early days.

I think it was in the MTV BTCS special where somebody said Dave would right lyrics and Steve would read them and say they were are good, but Dave could do better and send Dave back to the drawing board. The Lillywhite sessions were probably towards the end of producers pushing Dave to not just be good, but to be great in the producers eyes.

I believe it was said during AFTW that Steve took a more hands off approach as the band had evolved over the years and Dave was taking more charge and making decisions. I would guess Dave would push back and tell Steve that he is happy with takes or lyrics and it was good enough.
The 180 degree switch from Big Eyed Fish as it stands on LWS vs "tuckle up yourself with me" was abrupt and unfortunate
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Old 05-20-2021, 03:57 PM   #84
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That was Lillywhite in the early days.

I think it was in the MTV BTCS special where somebody said Dave would right lyrics and Steve would read them and say they were are good, but Dave could do better and send Dave back to the drawing board. The Lillywhite sessions were probably towards the end of producers pushing Dave to not just be good, but to be great in the producers eyes.

I believe it was said during AFTW that Steve took a more hands off approach as the band had evolved over the years and Dave was taking more charge and making decisions. I would guess Dave would push back and tell Steve that he is happy with takes or lyrics and it was good enough.
Didn’t Dave outright say in an interview that one of the issues he had with AFTW was that he felt it was finished but lillywhite made him/the band keep working on it?
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Old 05-20-2021, 04:25 PM   #85
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Didn’t Dave outright say in an interview that one of the issues he had with AFTW was that he felt it was finished but lillywhite made him/the band keep working on it?
Don’t believe so. I believe he said he thought it was finished but the label remixed things to make it less rough. And I don’t believe Steve was involved with that mix. I think that’s the annoyance/dissatisfaction you’re remembering.
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Old 05-20-2021, 04:43 PM   #86
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Didn’t Dave outright say in an interview that one of the issues he had with AFTW was that he felt it was finished but lillywhite made him/the band keep working on it?
He said he was disappointed in it because others kept telling him it wasnt done and he needed to keep working on it. Didnt mention LW specifically.
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Old 05-20-2021, 06:16 PM   #87
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Didn’t Dave outright say in an interview that one of the issues he had with AFTW was that he felt it was finished but lillywhite made him/the band keep working on it?
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He said he was disappointed in it because others kept telling him it wasnt done and he needed to keep working on it. Didnt mention LW specifically.
Now that you say this, this does sound familiar. I would guess this stems from the same place where Lillywhite saying how it could be better and now Dave was taking more control and saying no it's good enough.

I don't know what the differences in philosophies are between Lillywhite, Ballard, Baston and Cavallo, but I'd guess Lillywhite approaches recording goals differently?
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Old 05-21-2021, 06:28 AM   #88
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Now that you say this, this does sound familiar. I would guess this stems from the same place where Lillywhite saying how it could be better and now Dave was taking more control and saying no it's good enough.

I don't know what the differences in philosophies are between Lillywhite, Ballard, Baston and Cavallo, but I'd guess Lillywhite approaches recording goals differently?
I think it comes down to lillywhite knows how to use the whole band, and the other producers don’t. Cavallo imparts his background on the band, while lillywhite works with each band he produces and highlights what makes them unique. Not really a knock on cavallo though. As for batson and Ballard, they’re pop guys who want to produce hits
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Old 05-21-2021, 08:07 AM   #89
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I think it comes down to lillywhite knows how to use the whole band, and the other producers don’t. Cavallo imparts his background on the band, while lillywhite works with each band he produces and highlights what makes them unique. Not really a knock on cavallo though. As for batson and Ballard, they’re pop guys who want to produce hits
I honestly don't mind Cavallo's approach. Had Big Whiskey not gotten played into the ground, I don't think people would foster as much distaste for those songs as they're actually pretty damn good. It was the closest of the bunch to the sound that Lillywhite could perfectly capture out of all of the other producers, IMO...just maybe a little more refined in the process.
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Old 05-21-2021, 08:44 AM   #90
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Now that you say this, this does sound familiar. I would guess this stems from the same place where Lillywhite saying how it could be better and now Dave was taking more control and saying no it's good enough.

I don't know what the differences in philosophies are between Lillywhite, Ballard, Baston and Cavallo, but I'd guess Lillywhite approaches recording goals differently?
Lillywhite said it best in one of those recent interviews he did. He said most producers treat DMB like “Dave’s band”, and make it all about him. Lillywhite understood that the appeal to DMB wasn’t all Dave, it was about everyone blending together to create the unique sound. A lot of these producers DMB have worked with just didn’t do a lot of background homework and kind of just made it all about Dave, and catered to him.

But also, LW said the band evolved and DAve takes more control now than ever, and yeah that’s why he wasn’t going to push anymore. Dave himself said that he stepped in and “put his foot down” on a lot of CT, unfortunately it sounds like that’s a bad thing.
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Old 05-21-2021, 08:46 AM   #91
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I honestly don't mind Cavallo's approach. Had Big Whiskey not gotten played into the ground, I don't think people would foster as much distaste for those songs as they're actually pretty damn good. It was the closest of the bunch to the sound that Lillywhite could perfectly capture out of all of the other producers, IMO...just maybe a little more refined in the process.
Yeah BW really gets crapped on a lot around here but it was better than AFTW, better than CT and 100x better than SU. It was a modernized DMB, and a direction I thought made sense. It’s not perfect and there are some clunkers on it, but it was easily the best produced album they’ve had since BTCS, it’s just that the songs themselves weren’t anywhere near as good.
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Old 05-21-2021, 09:29 AM   #92
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AFTW > BW> CT
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Old 05-21-2021, 09:37 AM   #93
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AFTW > BW> CT
There’s only 3 songs I like on AFTW—I think people overrate it and want to like it because of Lillywhite but it’s honestly a pretty terrible album. Just my .02
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Old 05-21-2021, 09:39 AM   #94
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Put Big Whiskey last for me. Come Tomorrow just has overall better songs, although BW has cleaner production at times.

Away from the World is tops mainly because of Lillywhite. He simultaneously gets out of the band's way and surgically puts his stamp on their sound. A shame we don't have his mix of the album.

One could probably make a single great album from all 3, including some of the outtakes.
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Old 05-21-2021, 10:04 AM   #95
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Come on, man.
I'm only half joking. When Jake posted that article on the homepage of ants.org I honestly think word got back to Dave. His freestyle was never the same. The best we got was some of the '08 Sugar wills which were related to Roi's passing. I think 2012 had a couple interesting Shotguns. I can't remember anything else.
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Old 05-21-2021, 11:47 AM   #96
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There’s only 3 songs I like on AFTW—I think people overrate it and want to like it because of Lillywhite but it’s honestly a pretty terrible album. Just my .02
Agree. What a weak album. 3-4 songs I like.
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Old 05-21-2021, 11:58 AM   #97
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He said he was disappointed in it because others kept telling him it wasnt done and he needed to keep working on it. Didnt mention LW specifically.
Right:

"I think sometimes I … Sometimes I spend a lot of my life trying to get answers from the people around me instead of listening to myself. But after I turned 50, something happened. I’ve realized that there are more important things than saying “okay.” An example is the last album I made, which is fine. It’s called Away From the World. I think it was a great album and then I let people convince me it wasn’t finished. I did a disservice to the music. I kept working on it and it lost a lot. It’s too bad I didn’t say, “No, you’re wrong. The music may be flawed and splintered but it’s genuine. It’s done.” The new album, I don’t know whether it’s good or bad, but I managed to say “No.” People were saying things like, “I don’t know if we should put this song or that song on the album.” And I was able to say, “You’re wrong. We’re leaving it.” But I hope I never feel like I’ve got it “right” creatively. That probably wouldn’t be a good sign."

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Old 05-21-2021, 12:38 PM   #98
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I think the production is pretty lousy across big whiskey.

Especially why I am. They couldn’t have done that worse in the studio. Amazing, really.
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Old 05-21-2021, 12:48 PM   #99
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Right:

"I think sometimes I … Sometimes I spend a lot of my life trying to get answers from the people around me instead of listening to myself. But after I turned 50, something happened. I’ve realized that there are more important things than saying “okay.” An example is the last album I made, which is fine. It’s called Away From the World. I think it was a great album and then I let people convince me it wasn’t finished. I did a disservice to the music. I kept working on it and it lost a lot. It’s too bad I didn’t say, “No, you’re wrong. The music may be flawed and splintered but it’s genuine. It’s done.” The new album, I don’t know whether it’s good or bad, but I managed to say “No.” People were saying things like, “I don’t know if we should put this song or that song on the album.” And I was able to say, “You’re wrong. We’re leaving it.” But I hope I never feel like I’ve got it “right” creatively. That probably wouldn’t be a good sign."

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Yup, I’d love to know which songs were being argued over. Was Dave insisting on keeping TGIY or did he have to fight for IOY and Can’t Stop? Would love to know.

But at times I’ve thought that was one of Dave’s biggest problems is that maybe working on something TOO hard and forcing it makes the songs worse, which is Definitley true. But at the same time, the Batson approach of “everything is good” is bad too. There’s a solid middle ground where you put a lot of effort in but not to the point where you take all of the character out of it.
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Old 05-21-2021, 12:52 PM   #100
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I think the production is pretty lousy across big whiskey.

Especially why I am. They couldn’t have done that worse in the studio. Amazing, really.
I think it’s great production, but perhaps not a style you care for. It’s very polished, shiny and in your face production but at least the entire album sounds that way—it’s cohesive, sounds together and creates a full experience.

AFTW and CT both just play as compilation albums...they sound like a collection of random songs that don’t go together and sound like they’re put together from different studio sessions. There’s a huge lack of continuity from front to back. The songs themselves might be better but in terms of creating an experience, which is what an album is supposed to do, neither of those do that for me.
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