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View Poll Results: Do you think the LWS could have been DMB's best album if it was finished properly with Lillywhite?
Yes, it could have been the best 72 52.94%
No, it still probably wouldn't have been the best 44 32.35%
Who's to say? I dunno. 20 14.71%
Voters: 136. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-30-2010, 01:15 AM   #21
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i'd still go with BTCS even with the criteria you just mentioned. but neither of us are wrong.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:11 AM   #22
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i don't think so.

it certainly would have been different for them, in a good way, but I don't think it surpasses the first three. It would have been a very honest record, I think, which some would love, and many wouldn't be able to get into. By contrast, Busted Stuff feels a little cheap, and fluffed up too much. They did get some things right (Raven, Grey Street for example) there, but largely, the honesty of those songs got totally sucked out.

Had LWS been finished, I CAN safely say that Big Eyed Fish and Bartender probably would have been immediate top 5 dmb song contenders for me. I couldn't get enough of those raw versions when i first got them... and I don't see where much would have changed... maybe keyboards? some studio effects? but the performances, alone, merited that kind of praise.

ultimately, i think most of us would have had that kind of viewpoint where the album meets your standards, but doesn't scream best-ever. kind of a placeholder, rather than mass cliff-jumper that was Everyday.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:41 AM   #23
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By contrast, Busted Stuff feels a little cheap, and fluffed up too much. They did get some things right (Raven, Grey Street for example) there, but largely, the honesty of those songs got totally sucked out.
I agree. And not just because of the time that passed between the LWS and the Busted Stuff sessions either.

I still think we fans kicked ourselves in the heads when we deigned to listen to these unfinished versions. As some of the band has said, it is perfectly understandable for us to want to hear it, and yet I still feel we really missed out on what might have been. We might have the best of both worlds having both sets of songs but we still lost out.

So did the band. Just listen to the production of some of Busted Stuff; it's lifeless compared with the near warmth or intimacy of the LWS. It's as if the band did the album to shut us all up. So, in this respect, I feel the beginning of the last decade wasn't just unfortunate for the band...
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:39 AM   #24
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no cause Tim wasn't involved
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:15 AM   #25
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Yeah I hate questions like this. Half of what makes LWS what it is is the circumstances behind it. I love listening to it. I find Raven and KKJ to be a little too raw and unfinished here, but the other ten songs are great and I love what we have from them. But if Steve had been able to finish it up he may very well have changed things about it that we like as fans. We can't know for sure.
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:33 AM   #26
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:46 AM   #27
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I'm glad the Lillywhites were distributed as an unfinished product.

If the band releases the tracks as we have them - as is - I have no doubt that it would be my favorite DMB album after 'Crash'.

Like most of said, if the album was produced for an official release, with the clean-up, etc.. i doubt it would have been as good as any of the "Big 3"
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:53 AM   #28
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I'm not saying it wouldnt have been better, I'm just saying "finished" does not necessarily = better in this case. We love this disc because its unfinished. Pretty surprised at all the "yes" votes
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:00 AM   #29
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Like most of said, if the album was produced for an official release, with the clean-up, etc.. i doubt it would have been as good as any of the "Big 3"
def don't agree with this. I think LWS would have been a contender for the top spot, and we could forget about all this big three garbage, because there never would have been an ED or Stand Up. Sure, the band might have broken up for a period, or taken a tour off, but I am confident the band would be touring now and I'm not sure things would be much different (IE, I think attitudes may have been similar and Tim might still be playing with them). But, this discussion is never going to turn out any different than it does every other time we have it.
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:12 AM   #30
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def don't agree with this. I think LWS would have been a contender for the top spot, and we could forget about all this big three garbage, because there never would have been an ED or Stand Up. Sure, the band might have broken up for a period, or taken a tour off, but I am confident the band would be touring now and I'm not sure things would be much different (IE, I think attitudes may have been similar and Tim might still be playing with them). But, this discussion is never going to turn out any different than it does every other time we have it.
I agree with the "big three garbage" statement, but that's how I personally measure DMB. It's not right, nor is it wrong. But after listening to music for 38 years, DMB's "big 3" are some of my favorite all-time studio albums.
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:18 AM   #31
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You're missing the point, there would have been no need for a designation of "the big 3" if LWS had been released. We most likely wouldn't have had the "little" albums that came out after so there would have been no reason to differentiate.
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:23 AM   #32
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You're missing the point, there would have been no need for a designation of "the big 3" if LWS had been released. We most likely wouldn't have had the "little" albums that came out after so there would have been no reason to differentiate.
point noted..
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:23 AM   #33
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I think this discussion should be separate from the discussion of what would have followed had the LWS been finished. They're two different things.
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:28 AM   #34
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Maybe it's because this batch of songs is played live less than the rest, but I've just found that over the years these are the songs that I get tired of the least frequently. I'd be excited to hear most songs off the LWS at a show this summer, whereas about half of the songs off the Big 3 wouldn't get me seriously excited at this point at a show. But again, that could be because I've seen LWS songs less in concert at this point.

But anyway, even though the LWS is special for its rawness and darkness, I don't see why lots of people think it would have only gotten worse if Lillywhite finished them. I could definitely imagine the songs getting better with some more production and additions, and maybe even darker. I feel like there's good reason to hate on "production" at this point after some of the over-produced messes we've seen from DMB, but when it's done right, it only helps.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:02 PM   #35
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Of all the studio albums, Busted Stuff is the one I listen to the most. I'm not saying it's better than the big 3, but I prefer the BTCS/Crash/UTTAD songs live, where I can listen to the BS songs in any form (with the exception of WAYG). So, I definitely think the LWS would have been equal to or better than the big 3.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:19 PM   #36
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I think it certainly could have been their best album but its impossible for us to know obviously. I don't buy the argument that the reason the Lillywhite Sessions are held in such high regard is because they are unfinished. They are held in high regard because they are good fucking songs played from the heart. I absolutely think if they had finished the album it would have been something even more amazing than what we have.

The best analogy I can think of is that the Lillywhite Sessions are like a soundcheck or a group of songs that were played live but never got proper studio treatment. To me thinking about what the finished Lillywhite Sessions would have been is the same as wondering how a studio Sugar Will or GGT would sound.
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:07 PM   #37
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Maybe it's because this batch of songs is played live less than the rest, but I've just found that over the years these are the songs that I get tired of the least frequently. I'd be excited to hear most songs off the LWS at a show this summer, whereas about half of the songs off the Big 3 wouldn't get me seriously excited at this point at a show. But again, that could be because I've seen LWS songs less in concert at this point.

But anyway, even though the LWS is special for its rawness and darkness, I don't see why lots of people think it would have only gotten worse if Lillywhite finished them. I could definitely imagine the songs getting better with some more production and additions, and maybe even darker. I feel like there's good reason to hate on "production" at this point after some of the over-produced messes we've seen from DMB, but when it's done right, it only helps.
I don't know if it's necessarily that the songs would have gotten worse. I mean, finished lyrical takes of Grey Street, Raven and Kit Kat Jam certainly would have been better. I think some people, myself included, agree with the idea that alot of what draws people to the LWS is the mystique of it, in addition to the music. The LWS were a revelation for people; it was a peek behind the curtain, and in addition to that it came right after Everyday, which really damaged the fanbases' confidence in DMB.

In my time as a fan, I've gotten to meet and speak to alot of people. Alot of them heard Busted Stuff before the LWS, and most of them don't find the LWS preferable. Is it maybe just that they like what they heard first more? Certainly, but I also think it may mean that the sentimental value people have regarding the LWS, and it's place in DMB's history, is something that BS could not have overcome for some folks, no matter how good it was.

I'm not really saying anything different than dissident was earlier; in addition to these really spare dark pieces you also have some problems with the LWS as an album, primarily due to the fact that it's unfinished (this is mainly in the lyrical department). I think one of the reasons the LWS is so beloved is the idea of them more than the actual music.

I do think this is DMB's best group of songs, although I never think they got it as good as it could be. I'd put LWS and BS both around 3 on my top albums, but that's mainly due to the strength of the songs rather than anything else. If they hadn't run into problems, the LWS could have definitely ended up being their best album.
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:13 PM   #38
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i don't think the LWS has anything that matches stuff like LIOG, The Stone, Dreaming Tree, Warehouse, and The Last Stop.
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Old 04-30-2010, 03:08 PM   #39
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I want to say yes because the ideas that came from those sessions were so good and the execution of certain elements like Dave's vocals and Roi's playing on Bartender outro, those are the things that make want to say yes it could have reached above BTCS but the reality is that BTCS was a monster from every angle. It was a new venture for the band, the guests, the segues, the dark writing, the vocals, the production, the lyrics. Now I understand the LWS weren't finished but you can still get a sense of where the band wanted to go with that album, or at the least, those songs. So, with that in mind, where those songs stood at that time, finished or not, I just don't see it surpassing what was accomplished with BTCS.
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Old 04-30-2010, 03:16 PM   #40
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no cause Tim wasn't involved
but tim was going to be involved, right? this was the framework for the songs before final production and guests were added. could you imagine these songs with TR and the flecktones?
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