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Old 04-28-2018, 11:50 PM   #41
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The Dreaming Tree is also a unique song in the canon. How many story songs does DMB have? Grey Street, Hello Again, Big Eyed Fish, Bismarck, The Dreaming Tree, Proudest Monkey, Christmas Song and Grace is Gone?
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Old 04-28-2018, 11:51 PM   #42
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This all just made me more interested in hearing an in-depth interview about AFTW. Would love to hear how he feels about that record now.
Amen. I'd love to hear how his process of producing the band has changed.
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Old 04-29-2018, 12:47 AM   #43
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Worth noting: my wife is sick in bed, my kids are asleep, and I have been drinking. Heavily.

When first hearing Lillywhite’s comment in this podcast about dreaming tree representing the last stand of dave’s song writing I rebuffed it, as my brain immediately jumped to Captain and BEF from the LWS. But I’m listening to BTCS now, as there was no way I was letting the 20th anniversary of my all time favorite album go by w/o giving it a spin, and I just hit Dreaming Tree. Steve is right! Dreaming Tree was dave summing up the entirety of the band. There is a begining, where purity, innocence, and a skies the limit mentality lead the way. Then, eventually, before we would like to think, everything is corrupted. On the studio cut (afaik, never replicated live) Dave very clearly says, “Too much time,” before going into the “take me back, save me please,” part. And that is just it! He basically hit empty here. He was a victim of ‘too much time.’

Everything is perfect, to a point. Then, it fades. It turns. That is what everything in dreaming tree is. That is what this band is. That is what life is. Too much time and we all get got. It sounds so fucking stupid but Lillywhite talks about ‘big money,’ changing everything following this album. This was the last stand. This was literally ‘before these crowded streets’ for dmb. Dave was predicting nothing would ever be the same after this and, 20 years has shown us, it never was.

You’re the man Jack
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:53 AM   #44
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Worth noting: my wife is sick in bed, my kids are asleep, and I have been drinking. Heavily.

When first hearing Lillywhite’s comment in this podcast about dreaming tree representing the last stand of dave’s song writing I rebuffed it, as my brain immediately jumped to Captain and BEF from the LWS. But I’m listening to BTCS now, as there was no way I was letting the 20th anniversary of my all time favorite album go by w/o giving it a spin, and I just hit Dreaming Tree. Steve is right! Dreaming Tree was dave summing up the entirety of the band. There is a begining, where purity, innocence, and a skies the limit mentality lead the way. Then, eventually, before we would like to think, everything is corrupted. On the studio cut (afaik, never replicated live) Dave very clearly says, “Too much time,” before going into the “take me back, save me please,” part. And that is just it! He basically hit empty here. He was a victim of ‘too much time.’

Everything is perfect, to a point. Then, it fades. It turns. That is what everything in dreaming tree is. That is what this band is. That is what life is. Too much time and we all get got. It sounds so fucking stupid but Lillywhite talks about ‘big money,’ changing everything following this album. This was the last stand. This was literally ‘before these crowded streets’ for dmb. Dave was predicting nothing would ever be the same after this and, 20 years has shown us, it never was.
Great post
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Old 04-29-2018, 11:36 AM   #45
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The Dreaming Tree interpretation is definitley interesting but there’s no way Dave was actually thinking about that when he wrote it. In retrospect you can always deduce different meanings behind stuff, but he didn’t write that about the band or himself, I don’t think.

Steve’s main point was that DT was the last song he wrote of that pariticular style. Which I’m not sure what he means, However, I think there are several songs since then that you could make an argument for being a similar style and even about similar themes. Old Dirt Hill is a very similar theme/sentiment, though obviously much less intricate and deep.

But lillywhite is right in that Dave has never written a song as deep and intricate with so many layers and Images as dreaming tree, maybe that’s really what he was getting at.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:00 PM   #46
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Thinking more on Steve's 'big money' comment changing things heading into the LWS. I hope Matt asks about Tim being left out when they do the LWS retrospective. I wonder if that plays in to that comment at all? Steven mentions how much fun dave and tim had together recording these albums. Tim is basically Dave's binki. I'm surprised when he was struggling during the recording they didn't reach out to tim first to see if he could have helped straighten the ship before Flohr & Carter blew everything up.

BTCS was a huge success, no matter how you slice it. Then, they go to record the follow up. Recording atleast 2 songs that dave and tim had road tested and developed together during the '99 d&t tour. Captain (crazy) had been another d&t song. But Tim, he was left out. I have always wondered why and am not sure we've ever had a real reason?
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:18 PM   #47
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Tim is basically Dave's binki.
holy shit
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:48 PM   #48
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Thinking more on Steve's 'big money' comment changing things heading into the LWS. I hope Matt asks about Tim being left out when they do the LWS retrospective. I wonder if that plays in to that comment at all? Steven mentions how much fun dave and tim had together recording these albums. Tim is basically Dave's binki. I'm surprised when he was struggling during the recording they didn't reach out to tim first to see if he could have helped straighten the ship before Flohr & Carter blew everything up.

BTCS was a huge success, no matter how you slice it. Then, they go to record the follow up. Recording atleast 2 songs that dave and tim had road tested and developed together during the '99 d&t tour. Captain (crazy) had been another d&t song. But Tim, he was left out. I have always wondered why and am not sure we've ever had a real reason?
Rumor was that there was a bit of a falling out between Dave and Tim for a few short years for whatever reason. I don’t know if they didn’t speak or what but on an official live DVD release by Tim in, I think, 2002(?), Tim and one of his crew guys make some snide joke and remark about Dave. I honestly can’t remember the detais. I don’t think that one little thing fully supports that rumor but it was still interesting that at a time when they weren’t working or touring together Tim would kinda talk shit about Dave/DMB.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:57 PM   #49
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I thought I remembered hearing after all of the guests on BTCS, they wanted to get back to the core 5 for the follow up. Tim seemed to be above just a "guest" (obviously he had all the tours with dave, the 98 tour with dmb and all the work on the uttad/crash).

I agree that I hope we get clarity on why he was excluded. Would love to know more if there was a divide with him and Dave. Whatever it was, they obviously had it worked out by 2003. I'd love to know what role that issue had in approaching Tim for D/F and Some Devil.
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:01 PM   #50
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I always thought it was Carter who didn’t want him around after the fall ‘98 tour. But, that’s just my go-to. When in doubt, blame carter.
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:02 PM   #51
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Rumor was that there was a bit of a falling out between Dave and Tim for a few short years for whatever reason. I don’t know if they didn’t speak or what but on an official live DVD release by Tim in, I think, 2002(?), Tim and one of his crew guys make some snide joke and remark about Dave. I honestly can’t remember the detais. I don’t think that one little thing fully supports that rumor but it was still interesting that at a time when they weren’t working or touring together Tim would kinda talk shit about Dave/DMB.
Well didn't carter hate what Tim was doing during the 98 winter tour? Maybe that contributed back to the animosity as carter could have been like fuck tim.

I also remember at the time they wanted an album of just the 5 of them to contrast against BTCS which had tons of guests. There technical never had been a DMB album with just the 5 guys and I could see Lillywhite giving the vision of reintroducing the band to the world and going back to a simpler record after BTCS.
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:38 PM   #52
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Well didn't carter hate what Tim was doing during the 98 winter tour? Maybe that contributed back to the animosity as carter could have been like fuck tim.

I also remember at the time they wanted an album of just the 5 of them to contrast against BTCS which had tons of guests. There technical never had been a DMB album with just the 5 guys and I could see Lillywhite giving the vision of reintroducing the band to the world and going back to a simpler record after BTCS.
Yead definitely, Carter hating Tim’s play for the ‘98 tour was also another popular rumor. Who knows really. It would be really interesting to get Steve’s memory jogged to get snippets of info we could sort of piece together. The LWS era is a difficult one to pin down in terms of who made what decisions, or was upset at who within the band and management, how the dysfunctional relationships played out during the recording, etc... There are tons of rumors and there have been many “elites” in the fanbase all having conflicting stories from their “sources” so none of these rumors have ever really been the base of a specific problem which is why Steve could really help shed the light on some things, even if theyre not personal things that were kept quiet for a reason.
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Old 04-29-2018, 03:48 PM   #53
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Worth noting: my wife is sick in bed, my kids are asleep, and I have been drinking. Heavily.

When first hearing Lillywhite’s comment in this podcast about dreaming tree representing the last stand of dave’s song writing I rebuffed it, as my brain immediately jumped to Captain and BEF from the LWS. But I’m listening to BTCS now, as there was no way I was letting the 20th anniversary of my all time favorite album go by w/o giving it a spin, and I just hit Dreaming Tree. Steve is right! Dreaming Tree was dave summing up the entirety of the band. There is a begining, where purity, innocence, and a skies the limit mentality lead the way. Then, eventually, before we would like to think, everything is corrupted. On the studio cut (afaik, never replicated live) Dave very clearly says, “Too much time,” before going into the “take me back, save me please,” part. And that is just it! He basically hit empty here. He was a victim of ‘too much time.’

Everything is perfect, to a point. Then, it fades. It turns. That is what everything in dreaming tree is. That is what this band is. That is what life is. Too much time and we all get got. It sounds so fucking stupid but Lillywhite talks about ‘big money,’ changing everything following this album. This was the last stand. This was literally ‘before these crowded streets’ for dmb. Dave was predicting nothing would ever be the same after this and, 20 years has shown us, it never was.


I definitely feel like this interpretation of the song really speaks to the experience most of us have in life. We have our childhood into our teenage adolescent years where things feel magical and pure... then as we get older, that slowly fades, or some kind of trauma or adversity hits us and nothing in life is ever the same. In a way it's almost like living two lives - the first with a natural Dreaming Tree childhood "flow" and the second after the Dreaming Tree "dies"
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Old 04-29-2018, 04:09 PM   #54
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I definitely feel like this interpretation of the song really speaks to the experience most of us have in life. We have our childhood into our teenage adolescent years where things feel magical and pure... then as we get older, that slowly fades, or some kind of trauma or adversity hits us and nothing in life is ever the same. In a way it's almost like living two lives - the first with a natural Dreaming Tree childhood "flow" and the second after the Dreaming Tree "dies"
It works so well going into pig too. Coming out of the heavy DT, pig is this airy ‘seize the day’ tune. Things may not be what they were, but you still have blood pumping through your veins. When you’re a kid you really live for the day, but when we get older we tend to push everything to tomorrow. Everyone needs a reminder to get out and live more, and love more.

“Look, here are we
On this starry night staring into space
And I must say
I feel as small as dust
Lying down here
What point could there be troubling
Head down wondering what will become of me
Why concern we cannot see
But no reason to abandon it
Time is short but that's all right
Maybe I'll go in the middle of the night“
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:41 PM   #55
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If I recall correctly Dave based the song in large part off the book the giving tree by Shea silverstein too
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Old 04-29-2018, 06:58 PM   #56
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hmm...interesting stuff. I'm about to listen to this, but I always thought DT was partly about losing a child since Stefan was going through that at that time.....
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:00 PM   #57
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hmm...interesting stuff. I'm about to listen to this, but I always thought DT was partly about losing a child since Stefan was going through that at that time.....
Fonz does have a songwriting credit for Dreaming Tree, doesn't he?
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:01 PM   #58
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Fonz does have a songwriting credit for Dreaming Tree, doesn't he?
yeah, I thought so....
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:05 PM   #59
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yeah, I thought so....
I checked the Almanac, it's a Matthews / Lessard (1998) credit.
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:09 PM   #60
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What was that story about Affleck and Paltrow visiting the studio while they were recording Dreaming Tree?
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