These Days Continue  
Go Back   These Days Continue > The Continuation > DMBc
Register Donate FAQ Members List Calendar Arcade Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-21-2012, 11:36 AM   #141
batleon
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: MA by way of RI
Posts: 15,051
Quote:
Originally Posted by gweeps View Post
Anyway, I loved those little additions to Shotgun he made years ago. Shame they were cut.
Knowing he was hit or miss they probably were afraid of the times when he'd "miss" it and quit while they were ahead
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack View Post
LET THE ALMANAC PICK SONGS / LIVE TRAX.
batleon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 11:40 AM   #142
raven
 
raven's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newtown, CT
Posts: 9,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by gweeps View Post
It occurs to me, in spite of the lyric, Shotgun has a hopeful feel to it.
Yeah that's a good point.. the music sort of counters the lyrics
raven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 11:40 AM   #143
raven
 
raven's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Newtown, CT
Posts: 9,533
SPAC 07 has always been my favorite one
raven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 12:44 PM   #144
Monk
Moore Soul
 
Monk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh. View Post
No offense Monk, I think you're just sharing an honest thought, but I'd be willing to bet $100 that muscle mass is not what's making him a shitty violinist. I think he just doesn’t practice enough and sucks because of it. It really doesn’t seem like muscle mass is going to obstruct him from playing; we’re not talking about optimum flexibility needed to play the instrument. It seems pretty straight forward.

Who knows, I mean I could totally be wrong. Personally, I just don't think he's dedicated to playing his instrument. Dude just wants to get high, lift weights and eat ice cream.
I think you're missing a lot of the information to rule out added muscle mass completely. Flexibility and dexterity throughout the hand, fingers, and wrist is key to the violin. The violin has no frets and is very sensitive to finger positioning to play the correct notes. Many people here mistake Boyd's violin "going out of tune" when that's simply not the case - he's not placing his fingers correctly on the violin (which is why he will sound in tune one minute and out of tune the next). Most violinists will tell you that none of them hit the exact finger positioning 100% of the time, just that they are able to correct their finger position almost instantaneously to the point where it is virtually unnoticeable to the listener. A violinist requires the strength, flexibility, fine motor endurance, and dexterity in the wrist, hand, and forearm to make these corrections for proper finger placements (it's not like a guitar where you have an entire fret to get it right). If you don't believe muscular changes can severely influence one's functional abilities, then you're just wrong. I suppose you may believe me if I were to tell you his muscular changes could effect his tennis game, but I'm not sure why you don't believe it's a realistic consideration for changed/declined performance in a musician.

I'm also of the belief that Boyd is (in general) a sub-par violinist. I think it has been difficult for him over the years to adapt with the band - he is limited to playing certain keys and is generally a "one trick pony." Part of that I can see as laziness because I don't feel he has really grown as a musician, however we've heard him go "off tune" on songs he's been playing for 20 years, where the amount of practice honestly shouldn't make a difference. Again, I'm willing to bet there's more to it than just this, but his ability to consistently perform on the violin from a physical standpoint is a valid point to question.
__________________
UN-BAN SMITTAY! VIVA LA REVOLUCION! #OccupyTDC #Smittay

http://dmbalmanac.com/Member.aspx?number=181

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftMacho View Post
i get the feeling about 3% of the people in this thread have ever been laid
Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 12:55 PM   #145
inmytree
Hey Gee.
 
inmytree's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,115
I think one of the things I've found Boyd has lost, more than the issues of being out of tune, is his willingness or ability to create melodic lines that have a place in the song. That was a constant in the earlier work that he seems to have abandoned. I'm not that familiar with the terminology, but it seems more often than not he'll just saw along on a single note following the chord progression of the song. Especially if you have an expanded lineup and more voices in the mix, as DMB has had for about ten years, I'd assume you would have to be able to make something distinctive with your contribution to make it a part of a song.
inmytree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 01:00 PM   #146
Monk
Moore Soul
 
Monk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by inmytree View Post
I think one of the things I've found Boyd has lost, more than the issues of being out of tune, is his willingness or ability to create melodic lines that have a place in the song. That was a constant in the earlier work that he seems to have abandoned. I'm not that familiar with the terminology, but it seems more often than not he'll just saw along on a single note following the chord progression of the song. Especially if you have an expanded lineup and more voices in the mix, as DMB has had for about ten years, I'd assume you would have to be able to make something distinctive with your contribution to make it a part of a song.
I think that's a big part of why we don't hear much of him on Big Whiskey. It's not because Cavallo didn't know how to use him or didn't mix him in, it's because Boyd isn't producing much that is worthwhile. I honestly don't think Boyd has grown as a musician to keep up with the rest of the band.

That said, to get away from the Boyd bashing, I do feel he is an integral part of what makes DMB special and they wouldn't be the same without him.
__________________
UN-BAN SMITTAY! VIVA LA REVOLUCION! #OccupyTDC #Smittay

http://dmbalmanac.com/Member.aspx?number=181

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftMacho View Post
i get the feeling about 3% of the people in this thread have ever been laid
Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 01:45 PM   #147
inmytree
Hey Gee.
 
inmytree's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,115
If Boyd had been "mixed out" of BW, he would be contributing more to those songs live. For whatever reason, he just did not show up to play on that record.
inmytree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 02:11 PM   #148
FiddySpence
TDCya
 
FiddySpence's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 67,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by gweeps View Post
But actually, given what Lillywhite said about Boyd taking 15 takes to get a perfect version and then flubbing the next, I guess he's just a hit-or-miss violinist.
if his ratio is 15 to 1 that's far past "hit-or-miss", that just makes him a shitty musician.
FiddySpence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 05:11 PM   #149
Josh.0
 
Josh.0's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 10,569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
I think you're missing a lot of the information to rule out added muscle mass completely. Flexibility and dexterity throughout the hand, fingers, and wrist is key to the violin. The violin has no frets and is very sensitive to finger positioning to play the correct notes. Many people here mistake Boyd's violin "going out of tune" when that's simply not the case - he's not placing his fingers correctly on the violin (which is why he will sound in tune one minute and out of tune the next). Most violinists will tell you that none of them hit the exact finger positioning 100% of the time, just that they are able to correct their finger position almost instantaneously to the point where it is virtually unnoticeable to the listener. A violinist requires the strength, flexibility, fine motor endurance, and dexterity in the wrist, hand, and forearm to make these corrections for proper finger placements (it's not like a guitar where you have an entire fret to get it right). If you don't believe muscular changes can severely influence one's functional abilities, then you're just wrong. I suppose you may believe me if I were to tell you his muscular changes could effect his tennis game, but I'm not sure why you don't believe it's a realistic consideration for changed/declined performance in a musician.

I'm also of the belief that Boyd is (in general) a sub-par violinist. I think it has been difficult for him over the years to adapt with the band - he is limited to playing certain keys and is generally a "one trick pony." Part of that I can see as laziness because I don't feel he has really grown as a musician, however we've heard him go "off tune" on songs he's been playing for 20 years, where the amount of practice honestly shouldn't make a difference. Again, I'm willing to bet there's more to it than just this, but his ability to consistently perform on the violin from a physical standpoint is a valid point to question.
So what you're saying is all good violin players must have roughly the same build. Any bigger and there's restriction and any smaller they're too weak and nimble.

I just don't buy it. Added muscle mass isn't going to throw off his ability to play consistently shitty for 14 years. Any muscle memory, with regular practice, would still be there. It's not like stopped playing violin on Monday, got his 24 inch pythons overnight, and suddenly couldn't play anymore on Tuesday. Bodily changes are very, very gradual when you work out; I really don't think that that inhibited his ability to play. Not practicing enough repressed his ability to play.

I'll put it this way. I played baseball for a bit in college. When I first went to school, I threw about 80-85 MPH. Then I started lifting a ton of weights, and put on a fair amount of muscle (guessing about 15-20 pounds) in three or four years. The rotator cuff on my right arm thickened over time. By the time I left school, I still threw with about the same velocity (a few MPH higher). Why didn't the muscle growth and added weight limit the velocity on my pitches? Because I pitched the entire time, even while I was putting on muscle mass, so my body continuously adjusted to the additional muscle and it never affected my velocity (my control sucked before and after, so there wasn't a noticeable negative or positive affect when it came to that).

I don't care how "fine" your dexterity has to be playing violin. If you continue playing through bodily changes, your body adjusts and you can stay on top of your craft. He sucks because he doesn't practice, not because he brought his gun show on tour.
__________________
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by K270 View Post
Just so you know, B.B.C. stands for Bitch Be Cool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
You know what else it stands for though, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBeam41 View Post
I cant wait for him to google that
30 minutes later

Quote:
Originally Posted by K270 View Post
You guys are sick.
Josh.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 05:21 PM   #150
dmb1981
 
dmb1981's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 6,450
I really have no use for shotgun and certainly have no interest in seeing it on the new album. It just doesn't do it for me. A couple of the early versions were good but since then it's not even a song I even want to see live.
dmb1981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 05:27 PM   #151
Monk
Moore Soul
 
Monk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh. View Post
So what you're saying is all good violin players must have roughly the same build. Any bigger and there's restriction and any smaller they're too weak and nimble.

I just don't buy it. Added muscle mass isn't going to throw off his ability to play consistently shitty for 14 years. Any muscle memory, with regular practice, would still be there. It's not like stopped playing violin on Monday, got his 24 inch pythons overnight, and suddenly couldn't play anymore on Tuesday. Bodily changes are very, very gradual when you work out; I really don't think that that inhibited his ability to play. Not practicing enough repressed his ability to play.

I'll put it this way. I played baseball for a bit in college. When I first went to school, I threw about 80-85 MPH. Then I started lifting a ton of weights, and put on a fair amount of muscle (guessing about 15-20 pounds) in three or four years. The rotator cuff on my right arm thickened over time. By the time I left school, I still threw with about the same velocity (a few MPH higher). Why didn't the muscle growth and added weight limit the velocity on my pitches? Because I pitched the entire time, even while I was putting on muscle mass, so my body continuously adjusted to the additional muscle and it never affected my velocity.

I don't care how "fine" your dexterity has to be playing violin. If you continue playing through bodily changes, your body adjusts and you can stay on top of your craft. He sucks because he doesn't practice, not because he brought his gun show on tour.
First of all, we're talking about fine motor activity, not gross motor (which you used in your example of pitching). There's a big difference between the small, intricate movements required to play an instrument compared to the large movements needed to throw a ball. Second, you threw consistently because you had the appropriate skills and means to do so. Had you trained improperly, created muscle imbalances or lost needed range of motion, you may have performed at a lesser rate or even injured yourself. It's not a bad thing to put on muscle bulk and it's important for Boyd (or any musician) to train physically to maintain good health. Violin players are especially at risk for neck, wrist, shoulder, and back problems due to over-use. Of course not all violinists have to have the same build, but each violinist has to have an appropriate amount of dexterity, flexibility, fine motor control, and muscular endurance to play their instrument well. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Do you have any proof or research to back up your claims that muscle bulk or muscle imbalances can't influence a musicians performance? I ask because it's part of my profession, which I studied for six years, so I'm honestly wondering if you're talking out of your ass or have some kind of justification for your argument other than anecdotal evidence.

If you're actually interested in learning, maybe you should read this book.
[Only registered users can see links.]
__________________
UN-BAN SMITTAY! VIVA LA REVOLUCION! #OccupyTDC #Smittay

http://dmbalmanac.com/Member.aspx?number=181

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftMacho View Post
i get the feeling about 3% of the people in this thread have ever been laid
Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 05:40 PM   #152
Josh.0
 
Josh.0's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 10,569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
First of all, we're talking about fine motor activity, not gross motor (which you used in your example of pitching). There's a big difference between the small, intricate movements required to play an instrument compared to the large movements needed to throw a ball. It's not a bad thing to put on muscle bulk and it's important for Boyd (or any musician) to train physically to maintain good health. Violin players are especially at risk for neck, wrist, shoulder, and back problems due to over-use. Of course not all violinists have to have the same build, but each violinist has to have an appropriate amount of dexterity, flexibility, fine motor control, and muscular endurance to play their instrument well. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Do you have any proof or research to back up your claims that muscle bulk or muscle imbalances can't influence a musicians performance? I ask because it's part of my profession, which I studied for six years, so I'm honestly wondering if you're talking out of your ass or have some kind of justification for your argument other than anecdotal evidence.

If you're actually interested in learning, maybe you should read this book.
[Only registered users can see links.]
I can tell it's part of your profession. There's zero chance I read that book.

You lost me when you said there are no small, intricate movements in pitching a baseball. It's actually a series of small, intricate movements.

If he was practicing regularly while he was working out and putting on mass, I'm willing to bet he'd be just as fantastic and he was in '97, because his fine motor skills would have adjusted over time as well. But yes, Boyd's guns alone are the reason for the skrees, not a lazy approach to his craft.

But if you want to brief me on the chapter that says building bigger biceps and forearms will cause deterioration in ability despite regular practice, I will gladly shut up.
__________________
Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by K270 View Post
Just so you know, B.B.C. stands for Bitch Be Cool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
You know what else it stands for though, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBeam41 View Post
I cant wait for him to google that
30 minutes later

Quote:
Originally Posted by K270 View Post
You guys are sick.
Josh.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 06:09 PM   #153
Monk
Moore Soul
 
Monk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh. View Post
I can tell it's part of your profession. There's zero chance I read that book.

You lost me when you said there are no small, intricate movements in pitching a baseball. It's actually a series of small, intricate movements.

If he was practicing regularly while he was working out and putting on mass, I'm willing to bet he'd be just as fantastic and he was in '97. But yes, Boyd's guns are the reason for the skrees, not a lazy approach to his craft.

But if you want to brief me on the chapter that says building bigger biceps and forearms will cause deterioration in ability despite regular practice, I will gladly shut up.
I guess there's no real reason to continue this argument after this post, since you're either not understanding my points or are blatantly ignoring them.

It's actually quite funny you're explaining the technical side of pitching to me. Regardless of 'pitching a bit' in college, I doubt you've studied or have any background in kinesthesiology. Surely with some background in pitching, though, you should know that there are some small movements with pitching and you can influence a pitch greatly by changing your grip, but in general it is an open chain gross motor activity. In fact, most of the force generated to throw a baseball comes from torque generated in the hips and trunk (not the arm).

As for Boyd, I never said the size of his biceps had anything to do with his musicianship. The biceps act primarily on the elbow and shoulder, having little to do with the wrist, hands, and fingers. As for the muscle bulk in his forearms, most of the muscles responsible for wrist, hand, and finger movements originate in the forearm, so any changes in these muscles and tendons can drastically change fine motor control distally. Yes there are other intrinsic muscles in the hand, but the muscles that originate from the forearm generally have the physical advantage to perform fine motor movements.

Anyhow, according to the book you have "zero chance" of reading:
Quote:
Flexor Digitorum Superficialis (FDS) and Flexor Digitorum Profundus (FDP)

"These muscles both flex the fingers... ...occasionally, the tendons or nerve supply of one becomes inflamed or squashed by muscle bulk and then the joint it supplies won't work. Weakness of FDS decreases grip strength and interferes with finger function... Weakness of FDP means difficulty in flexing the last joint of the finger, affecting any precision movement, especially intonation in string playing..."
I like that you bolded "despite regular practice." My argument has nothing to do with anything regarding "regular practice." That is your argument. Are you conceding that without regular practice, increased muscle bulk may play a role in decreasing musical performance concerning fine motor movements?

My point is, and has been consistent, that increased muscle hypertrophy in Boyd's forearms may be contributing to his decreased violin musical performance.
__________________
UN-BAN SMITTAY! VIVA LA REVOLUCION! #OccupyTDC #Smittay

http://dmbalmanac.com/Member.aspx?number=181

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftMacho View Post
i get the feeling about 3% of the people in this thread have ever been laid
Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 06:13 PM   #154
Fan#41
 
Homers Beer Run Champion!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Somerville, MA
Posts: 31,583
When the band started slowing the tempo down and started allowing more room within their tunes, Boyd had a tough time adjusting to it. I'm not defending him, just saying that's what seemed to be the case since 2000 to now. But again, late August/September of 2000 proved to be one of his best stretches ever. I said it earlier but it's been an up and down game with Boyd since 1999. He's had good runs and downright awful performances every single year since. I don't think Boyd's muscle growth has hindered his approach to the instrument. I think the weights and 4 hour a day regiments may take away from time he could/should be practicing.
__________________
Variety of emotion is good...it just makes the music different colors. - LeRoi Moore
Fan#41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 06:13 PM   #155
SoftMacho
Moore Soul
 
SoftMacho's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 3,899
His username should be changed to Dr. Monk.
SoftMacho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 06:15 PM   #156
Monk
Moore Soul
 
Monk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftMacho View Post
His username should be changed to Dr. Monk.
I'm honestly annoyed I even have to have this discussion.
__________________
UN-BAN SMITTAY! VIVA LA REVOLUCION! #OccupyTDC #Smittay

http://dmbalmanac.com/Member.aspx?number=181

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftMacho View Post
i get the feeling about 3% of the people in this thread have ever been laid
Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 06:16 PM   #157
Fan#41
 
Homers Beer Run Champion!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Somerville, MA
Posts: 31,583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
My point is, and has been consistent, that increased muscle hypertrophy in Boyd's forearms may be contributing to his decreased violin musical performance.
But don't you think that the increased muscle in that general area would also cause Boyd to be able to sustain the position his arms and hands have to be in for longer solos? If anything, I don't see it hurting more than helping, if that makes any sense.
__________________
Variety of emotion is good...it just makes the music different colors. - LeRoi Moore
Fan#41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 06:19 PM   #158
SoftMacho
Moore Soul
 
SoftMacho's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 3,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monk View Post
I'm honestly annoyed I even have to have this discussion.
Well, you don't expect folks to consider facts and years of professional experience in the field to mean anything, do you?
SoftMacho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 06:21 PM   #159
Monk
Moore Soul
 
Monk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan#41 View Post
But don't you think that the increased muscle in that general area would also cause Boyd to be able to sustain the position his arms and hands have to be in for longer solos? If anything, I don't see it hurting more than helping, if that makes any sense.
Not necessarily. Sure he needs an appropriate amount of strength in his muscles to perform, but having muscle strength doesn't necessarily equate to muscular endurance or fine motor control. The muscles in the forearms that extend to the wrist, hand, and fingers are pretty special in the fact that the tendons are quite long. They need to be able to smoothly glide with muscular contractions and relaxation. If there is too much muscle bulk in these muscles, they could actually work less efficiently or even compress surrounding structures. Increasing muscular strength also has to be balanced with flexibility, which could be another issue in Boyd's case. Simply practicing the violin regularly wouldn't necessarily correct muscle imbalances. There would have to be some kind of other program followed specifically to address any muscle imbalances or tightness.
__________________
UN-BAN SMITTAY! VIVA LA REVOLUCION! #OccupyTDC #Smittay

http://dmbalmanac.com/Member.aspx?number=181

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftMacho View Post
i get the feeling about 3% of the people in this thread have ever been laid
Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 06:27 PM   #160
Monk
Moore Soul
 
Monk's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftMacho View Post
Well, you don't expect folks to consider facts and years of professional experience in the field to mean anything, do you?
Is that honestly too much to ask?

The funny thing is, I'm not even saying that's really Boyd's issue. I've met him a few times (once running into him at Target), but I don't know him nor have I ever evaluated him personally. I'm just saying that in general it's not inconceivable that muscle hypertrophy can influence a musician's performance, so in Boyd's scenario it's something to consider. Apparently that's too difficult for some to understand.
__________________
UN-BAN SMITTAY! VIVA LA REVOLUCION! #OccupyTDC #Smittay

http://dmbalmanac.com/Member.aspx?number=181

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftMacho View Post
i get the feeling about 3% of the people in this thread have ever been laid
Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

These Days Continue > The Continuation > DMBc


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:53 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2006 thesedayscontinue.org

Page generated in 0.08653 seconds with 16 queries